Georgetown vs. #19 Oregon

[TheHall]

I feel more optimistic than you after last night I guess is what it comes down to. Not being personal, I didn't talk about you as a person Bill, I was just wondering why the first person to post about doom & gloom after nov 8th is you. There was a lot to like and dislike about last night for the BE, but to say last night was a setback seems overly pessimistic to me. Even with dunn's injury & the suspensions, prov did win last night against bc, a team that's probably going to be in the NCAAT. Also NO ONE expected Joshua Smith to debut like he did.

[TheHall]

Also I will admit I do get defensive when non-BE fans criticize our league or my team. If you rooted for a team in the league maybe I wouldn't feel the way I do about your critiques, even when I agree with them. It just seems like if you don't have a dog in the hunt, then you don't have anything to lose & losing is a big part of being a fan.

[Burrito]

I didn't expect St Johns to beat Wisconsin. I did expect the Friars to beat BC (without it going to OT). In regards to the Hoyas, I don't expect we will beat Kansas or Michigan State, so we needed the victory agains Oregon last night. A little disappointed with last night's results. But once again, its only November.

[stever20]

I think what last night did for the Hoya's is make Puerto Rico much more important. We have to beat Northeastern, and then bare minimum split with Kansas St and then Michigan/VCU/Florida State. Otherwise, that's really it for OOC if we lose to both Kansas and Michigan State.

[Bill Marsh]

I feel more optimistic than you after last night I guess is what it comes down to. Not being personal, I didn't talk about you as a person Bill, I was just wondering why the first person to post about doom & gloom after nov 8th is you. There was a lot to like and dislike about last night for the BE, but to say last night was a setback seems overly pessimistic to me. Even with dunn's injury & the suspensions, prov did win last night against bc, a team that's probably going to be in the NCAAT. Also NO ONE expected Joshua Smith to debut like he did.

First of all, I you don't feel more optimistic than I do. I never said I had lost faith with the conference or even with the two teams that lost last night. In fact, I've disagreed here with a poster who seems ready to give up on his St. John's team because of their "trend". I pointed out that one disappointing loss does not make a trend. I still feel optimistic about the Big East. It's my belief in the conference that leads me to feel disappointed after 2 losses in games I believe they should have won.

Second, I never posted glom and doom. I said that the losses were disappointing. Weren't they? Do you find them acceptable from a Georgetown team that some see as the best team in the conference? Or a St. John's team that many have labeled as the team to watch, the dark horse, the most talented team in the conference? Do you think that those coaches will not be running these teams into the ground today because they find these results unacceptable?

Why don't you comment on any of my positive posts about the league? I'm the guy who has posted repeatedly that I expect this league to produce 6 tournament teams and has been criticized for being unrealistic. Your description of me as being negative about the Big East is totally inaccurate. Do I have to start pulling up one positive post after another to defend myself?

Your comment was personal in the sense that it was about me rather than about what I said. You said that I pointed out "flaws". Rather than explaining your conclusion about my comment, you turned around and made it about me by saying that I "never miss an opportunity to . . . " The fact that I am now the subject of this conversation makes it plain enough that it is a personal attack rather than I discussion about the idea that I presented. A personal attack is ad hominem as yours was, it doesn't have to be about me as a person. The fact is that I'm not taking you to task on this after a single isolated comment but about comments that you have repeatedly directed at me. I'm asking you directly to stop it. I'm not your enemy.

[Bill Marsh]

Also I will admit I do get defensive when non-BE fans criticize our league or my team. If you rooted for a team in the league maybe I wouldn't feel the way I do about your critiques, even when I agree with them. It just seems like if you don't have a dog in the hunt, then you don't have anything to lose & losing is a big part of being a fan.

First of all, I'm not a non-Big East fan. I'm a huge fan of the Big East. I've been rooting for this conference for 35 years. The fact that I didn't get my degree from a Big East school doesn't mean that I'm not a fan of the league. When I paid tuition for 2 daughters at Providence, they told me that I was a member of the PC family. While I'm posting, I just got a call from them asking me for money as I do every year. And I give them money every year. They seem to be happy having me around as part of the family. Last night I caught the first few minutes of the PC-BC game and then continued to listen to the game on my way to a concert. First thing I did after getting into the car to go home, was to tune in to get the results of the game. Do you think that the fan base of any school is comprised only of students and alums?

My wife needs a team to root for in any game she watches. I don't. I'm kind of an analytic guy who played basketball growing up. I enjoy watching a game and analyzing it whether it's at the local park, or at a professional game, or anything in between. That doesn't mean that I don't have teams I pull for, but that's not the only basis on which I watch a game or a conference. I happen to think that what's going on in the Big East is extremely important for the well being of college basketball in particular and of college sports in general. I'm following all of that avidly. You must be a young guy if you think the only valid comments are those made by those who are die hard fans for one school, whose sun rises and sets on what happens with that school.

Finally, the comment which you jumped on was not at all critical of the league or any team. I said that 2 losses last night were disappointing and as such, were disappointments. Those were not the words of a fan? Do you think that Georgetown and St. John's fans are not disappointed with those losses? If you're going to accuse me of being disparaging toward the league or any individual school, it would be nice if you picked a comment in which I was actually doing that. I'm completely baffled as to how you could construe anything a said this morning as a knock on the Big East unless you think that 2 blown opportunities to get wins over OOC ranked teams was a good thing for the conference.

[Bill Marsh]

Mr. Marsh, you have very high standards. Anyone who "expected" St John's, a young-raw squad, to beat a Bo Ryan coached more veteran squad in the first game of the season was asking for a lot of Big East mojo last night. Personally, more was expected out of Georgetown and Providence played extremely well against a solid team. We definitely need to win some of the tougher games but expecting the Big East to go 7-0 last night was absurd.

NBEC, I disagree with you about St. John's and Wisconsin, but I'm willing to listen and learn. Let me explain the way I saw the 2 teams going into last night's game.

I do not see St. John's as "a young-raw squad". They are returning everyone from last year's team, which means they have a lot of players with starting experience from that team. That was a team that won 8 games in the best conference in the country despite losing their leading scorer with 3 games to go in the regular BE season. All 3 were losses as was their game in the BE tournament. With Harrison in the lineup, the results would likely have been different, so this team was even better than the 8 wins that are on their record. in addition, they got a head start on the season via a 2 week trip to Europe with 5 games against professional teams. Last night they started a senior, a junior, a sophomore, and 2 freshmen. But the first 2 players off the bench were 2 juniors, who both played 30+ minutes, and the 3rd sub was last year's BE Rookie of the Year. And let's look at the 2 freshman starters. Rysheed Jordan is a 5-star recruit, which by definition means that he is expected to be an immediate impact player. Kentucky is picked to win the national championship with a slew of kids like him? Young? Yes. Raw? No. The other, Sampson, is a red shirt freshman - not a true freshman - who did a postgraduate prep school year after high school. He's 20 years old, the age of a true college junior. I'd hardly call him "young". With a senior, 3 juniors, and Sampson, the age of a junior, the team on the floor had plenty of age and experience. Bottom line is that the 5 players who led the team in minutes were back playing again let night. They should have been picking up where they left off last year - especially since they had the 2 week trip to Europe to shake off the cobwebs.

Let's compare that situation to Wisconsin. Granted that Ryan is a terrific coach. But AFAIK, he wasn't playing last night. Coaches coach. Players respond. It's the players who play the games. Last night, Wisconsin started a senior, 3 juniors, and a sophomore. So, yes this was mostly a veteran starting lineup. The only players to see significant time off the bench were a junior and a sophomore. But let's look behind this a little bit. Wisconsin lost 3 starters from last year's team, which means that 3 starters in last night's game were adjusting to new roles. One of those, Kaminsky, played only 10 minutes per game last year and 8 the year before. Experienced? In practice but not a lot in games. Gasser, who has started in the past, missed all of last season, so he is making an adjustment. Dukan, who played 21 minutes off the bench last night, averaged only 3 minutes last year and 2 the year before. another experienced practice player but that's it. From last year's team, Wisconsin lost their top 3 rebounders, 2 of their top 3 scorers, and their leading shot blocker. These were not insignificant pieces that the new guys in the lineup were being asked to replace. Finally, look at the talent level. Only one of those 7 players who saw significant time last year was more than a 3-star recruit when they brought him in. That was Dekker, the sophomore starter who was last year's 6th man. Regardless of any advantage in age and experience, there was an enormous talent gap. St. John's had 7 players on the floor last night who were at least a 4-star recruit.

Given St. John's advantage in starting experience, given the level of talent on the St. John's roster, given their head start to the season against high quality opponents, I saw St. John's as the team that should shave won that game last night, the team that should have been more ready to start the season. Obviously I was wrong. But I don't think that I'm wrong to have high expectations for this St. John's team. If they don't live up to the standards that some of us have set for them, that's on them. Lat year was the time for the "young and raw" excuses. This is the year for them to be a contender and to beat teams like wisconsin. But not only didn't they win, it wasn't really close. And when they did get close midway through the 2nd half, they let Wisconsin pull away and having no answer for that surge. I was disappointed on them. I'm hoping it's only a bump in the road and a learning experience, because I expect a lot out of them this year.

[TheHall]

First of all, I you don't feel more optimistic than I do. I never said I had lost faith with the conference or even with the two teams that lost last night. In fact, I've disagreed here with a poster who seems ready to give up on his St. John's team because of their "trend". I pointed out that one disappointing loss does not make a trend. I still feel optimistic about the Big East. It's my belief in the conference that leads me to feel disappointed after 2 losses in games I believe they should have won.

Second, I never posted glom and doom. I said that the losses were disappointing. Weren't they? Do you find them acceptable from a Georgetown team that some see as the best team in the conference? Or a St. John's team that many have labeled as the team to watch, the dark horse, the most talented team in the conference? Do you think that those coaches will not be running these teams into the ground today because they find these results unacceptable?

Why don't you comment on any of my positive posts about the league? I'm the guy who has posted repeatedly that I expect this league to produce 6 tournament teams and has been criticized for being unrealistic. Your description of me as being negative about the Big East is totally inaccurate. Do I have to start pulling up one positive post after another to defend myself?

Your comment was personal in the sense that it was about me rather than about what I said. You said that I pointed out "flaws". Rather than explaining your conclusion about my comment, you turned around and made it about me by saying that I "never miss an opportunity to . . . " The fact that I am now the subject of this conversation makes it plain enough that it is a personal attack rather than I discussion about the idea that I presented. A personal attack is ad hominem as yours was, it doesn't have to be about me as a person. The fact is that I'm not taking you to task on this after a single isolated comment but about comments that you have repeatedly directed at me. I'm asking you directly to stop it. I'm not your enemy.

Fair enough.

On the 3 big games from last night if you watched a decent amount of them I find it hard to consider last night a setback at all. That's my criticism. Prov showed grit by winning against a veteran team that shoots well. The hoyas got a great game out of a player that no one thought would be playing this soon, while losing to a ranked opponent in a close game. Same thing with SJU they lost by a respectable score to a ranked opponent, but both teams showed plenty of promise towards being very good. Look a decent amount of Uconn fans are disappointed in the win against maryland because of the near collapse in the second half. My point is winning and losing in Nov isn't the only way to decide optimism.

[marquette]

Thankfully we didn't get a bad loss from Marquette vs Southern.

Yep, because Marquette, the team who was never behind at any point against an NCAA tournament team from last year, was in danger of a bad loss. Whereas Villanova, who was playing a team that went 13-20 last year and was down for most of the game, had just an amazing night. Cool story bro.

[hoyahooligan]

I'm disappointed we lost, but I am so encouraged for the season. Josh was even better than expected. He opens up so much for the offense and the Hoyas have really adapted to offense to fit the personnel this year. Much more driving and post up than last year.

The Hoyas have a lot that needs tightening, up, but it's the first game of the season. I watched that game and I saw a top 10 team that will win the BE. We're not going to shoot that poorly from three the whole season especially with Josh attracting so much attention.

I know I'm a homer, but Josh put the rest of the BE on notice. Georgetown is the team to beat even though we lost. The Hoyas will pick off 1 or more of Kansas or Michigan St. And they'll at least reach the Finals of puerto rico if not win it.