"Division 4" and Questions for BE fans

[IamJack]

Assuming, and this is a big assumption, that the P5 schools break off from the NCAA to form a new governing body: there has been a lot of discussion about who would be included in such a scenario and who would be left out (i.e., just P5, just P5 + BE + A10 +WCC, just P5 + G5, etc, etc). What I actually think makes sense is a breakoff of the P5 + valuable bball schools which would include some of, but not all, the schools from the BE, A10. WCC, MVC, the Ack! and the MWC. In this scenario, schools wouldn't be part of a new division within the NCAA or as part of the breakaway (outside of those already within the P5) just because they are part of an existing conference, but because they have shown results on the court/field and general commitment to athletics.

I'm a Georgetown fan, but I'm curious as to the thoughts of our conference brethren on the following questions; again, assuming the split happens in some form. GU has a couple of weaknesses in 1) facilities (being addressed through a soon to start $65mm practice facility) and 2) attendance (due to the fact that GU is a smallish school in a large metro competing against Pro and other college options), but I think we can overcome those issues due to our academics and national brand recognition.

With that said:

1. would you be in favor of your school offering stipends for BBall? 1.A) For all scholly sports?

2. If the new Div 4 required that your school sponsor 20/24/28 "NCAA" sports, does it? could it do so? Would it?

[butlerguy03]

If basketball doesn't pull weight, Butler gets left behind. I have a feeling Notre Dame, IU & Purdue would try to block Butler too.

[bman95]

Ultimately it will be the fans who approve or disapprove of any changes. For obvious money reasons, the BCS schools don't want to share NCAA profits and I think in many ways changing the football structure would be something they would be able to dream about. For basketball, this scenario would bring a huge backlash for all fans out there. March Madness, the NCAA tourn bracket (sweet 16, final four) are all owned properties of the NCAA, and much of the excitement is seeing the 1 or 2 seeds going up against the best teams in the land. As long as march madness is as popular as it is now, there is no way the BCS schools would ever be able to bring the changes that they want or really and changes at all to the current structure.

[BillEsq]

If the power 4/5 conferences leave and require schools to carry 24-28 sports teams the odds of the BE being added is severely reduced. The odds for the A-10 or WCC being added becomes minimal and well the Valley has very little chance of being added in any scenario.

The whole point of forcing the power schools to field 24-28 teams would be to eliminate the need to add any other schools/conferences to the mix.

However most Power schools are having trouble fielding the sports they have now and the trend has been to reduce the number of sports offered. If stipends are paid (and that is unlikely) the cost of the program will only go up. Most athletic departments are already operating in the red. Most state schools are already in financial crosshairs of their various state legislatures. Adding sports just isn't a real option.

What is more likely is that the Power schools will keep their current number of sports pull up a few conferences with them so they can fill out schedules. The BE appears natural as they are bigger schools, get them into big markets, don't play football and would help fill out the non-rev schedules. The WCC has some of the same appeal on the west coast. The A-10 to a lesser extent on the East. (i personally figure in this scenario that the BE will cherry pick the A-10 and the A-10 will miss the cut) There also remains Army and Navy who will have to be addressed at some point.

[BillEsq]

Ultimately it will be the fans who approve or disapprove of any changes. For obvious money reasons, the BCS schools don't want to share NCAA profits and I think in many ways changing the football structure would be something they would be able to dream about. For basketball, this scenario would bring a huge backlash for all fans out there. March Madness, the NCAA tourn bracket (sweet 16, final four) are all owned properties of the NCAA, and much of the excitement is seeing the 1 or 2 seeds going up against the best teams in the land. As long as march madness is as popular as it is now, there is no way the BCS schools would ever be able to bring the changes that they want or really and changes at all to the current structure.

Ultimately... the fans have no say in this. If they did the majority of fans would go with the power schools because the majority of fans follow the power schools. The Power schools will simply leave and form their own tournament which will make almost as much money and they will not have to share it with anyone. Fans will watch the tournament with Duke, UK and the rest of the power schools. Fill out brackets based on the power schools and the old division 1 will slowly fade to division 2 status. Listen I love the NCAA tourney but to sit there and think that the power schools making decisions bases on football money care about what individual fans think is close to irrational.

March Madness will always be there... There will still be a division III tourney that no one watches. A division II tourney that no one watches. The CIT and CBI will likely fade away as well as the NIT (few watch those as well). Their place will be taken by the old division 1 tourney and the new Division IV tourney will become the number 1 tournament. brackets will be made... pundits will prognosticate, talking heads will talk, nets will be cut, and the average fan will move on.

[Jet915]

I'm against paying students, seems like a slippery slope to me but if the Big 5 are going to do it, I think our conference MUST do it to stay competitive.

[aughnanure]

Ultimately it will be the fans who approve or disapprove of any changes. For obvious money reasons, the BCS schools don't want to share NCAA profits and I think in many ways changing the football structure would be something they would be able to dream about. For basketball, this scenario would bring a huge backlash for all fans out there. March Madness, the NCAA tourn bracket (sweet 16, final four) are all owned properties of the NCAA, and much of the excitement is seeing the 1 or 2 seeds going up against the best teams in the land. As long as march madness is as popular as it is now, there is no way the BCS schools would ever be able to bring the changes that they want or really and changes at all to the current structure.

Ultimately... the fans have no say in this. If they did the majority of fans would go with the power schools because the majority of fans follow the power schools. The Power schools will simply leave and form their own tournament which will make almost as much money and they will not have to share it with anyone. Fans will watch the tournament with Duke, UK and the rest of the power schools. Fill out brackets based on the power schools and the old division 1 will slowly fade to division 2 status. Listen I love the NCAA tourney but to sit there and think that the power schools making decisions bases on football money care about what individual fans think is close to irrational.

March Madness will always be there... There will still be a division III tourney that no one watches. A division II tourney that no one watches. The CIT and CBI will likely fade away as well as the NIT (few watch those as well). Their place will be taken by the old division 1 tourney and the new Division IV tourney will become the number 1 tournament. brackets will be made... pundits will prognosticate, talking heads will talk, nets will be cut, and the average fan will move on.

Peopled said similar things when IRL and CART split, and what happened? NASCAR. If they really do the unthinkable and decide to replace the tourney with their 60-80 teams (where everyone makes it, which is disgusting), it will never come back.

I don't think they want to fully split, and probably are aware of the political backlash that would occur. Ya think Idaho and New Mexico senators are going to be okay with the big state (tax-exempt) schools eliminating New Mexico schools from athletics? Schools rely on these for alumni donations, community, and to help the local economy. That and they can't run the dozens of money-losing olympic sports without the smaller schools.

I think they are waving a big stick to get their way on some stupid NCAA rules and to reduce the no. of number of D1 schools (which has become untenable- 360+ for basketball?!?!). I think you'll see something where the top 150-250 from D1 basketball stay and the top 80 or so from football make it. Basically just cutting away some of the fat that has been accumulating due to poor diet. I don't think they want to pay players either, but may allow some things like full-cost of scholarship, stipends, 4-year scholarships, ability for SAs to come back anytime and graduate free of charge. That and the removal of some stupid, overzealous NCAA player laws.

[aughnanure]

I'm against paying students, seems like a slippery slope to me but if the Big 5 are going to do it, I think our conference MUST do it to stay competitive.

I don;t know if I technically care about if we pay or not, but its the slippery slope that bothers me too. How soon until we have to compete for recruits that will can paid more at the big football schools? There has to be limits to ensure fairness or this sport will really turn into a bunch of Calipari teams.

[BillEsq]

I'm with you aug...

paying athletes will be a disaster ... i also agree with you that a full split is unlikely. If anything the change would most likely be a new division with about 100-200 teams in it. who gets in and who is out is probably debatable as would be the count for the number of teams in but i think your pretty close to being right...

4 power FBS conferences of 16 teams = 64 schools
1-2 FBS additional conferencs and Army/Navy (cannon fodder and keeps politicians happy) another 12-20 teams

plus most likely

The BE = at least 10 schools
Likely the WCC and potentially the A-10 for another 20 or so schools.
At this point they are really just adding filler so teams are added based on political clout and non-rev value

Its all just speculation at this point. It will be interesting to see how it all pans out.

[yorost]

I think Ivy with grandfather status has a shot, too. Lots of academic and historical sports clout. It's a good association to have. The changes wouldn't be too dramatic a shift for them.