Which BEast programs NEED to succeed

[marquette]

Haha are you striker then? And nope no 180 turn around in my book that I reserve for those with Crean alters in their apartment.

You caught me. And try not to let FriarFan2 ruffle your feathers too much. He likes stirring up controversy, but has been on much better behavior recently. Some of his older posts were downright vitriolic in regards to Seton Hall. He likes to get under Marquette fans' skin as well, but tends to be somewhat more tame in those attempts. Pretty much everyone else here is supportive toward every team in the conference and understands that we have a lot of work to do as a conference this year.

[marquette]

I guess I misspoke. It is only 2 championships instead of 3, but according to their wikipedia page it was pre-tournament Helms Championships in 1924 and 1929.

Actually North Carolina was the Helms Foundation title holder in 1924 and Montana State in 1929, but Butler won the AAU championship in 1924 and were awarded the McDevitt trophy in 1929 by Veteran Athletes of Philadelphia, recognizing Butler as national title holders that year. Obviously Butler challenges the Helms Foundation picks in both of those seasons

Right you are, that's what I get for trusting wikipedia. It's just so convenient though...

[TheHall]

I agree winning helps but it seems to me that putting players in the league outweighs even winning in cbb today. Just look at the BE's current flagship program Gtown. JT3 has had too many spectacular flameouts to count since that Final4 run but Gtown has become a NBA launching pad so he & the program are rightly revered. Same thing (minus the 1st round flameouts) for marquette recently under Buzz. He's won a decent amount but he's made marquette a beast on the recruiting trail with his NBA talent development success. Example:

http://painttouches.com/2013/09/02/why-trent-lockett-is-nba-bound/

When a program starts having success putting players in the league it most times gives a boost to recruiting, which is the lifeblood of all programs. I actually think winning is more important for mid majors & below (your Florida Gulf Coast example or Loyola Marymount back in the day), but I think Harkless going in the lottery was more significant for the perception of SJU's program than winning a few more games that season.

Also, If the players wind up doing well in the league or over-performing like Jimmy Butler or Roy Hibbert it's a double bonus. But even if the school has a history of putting busts in the league there's still a measurable boost to the program's perception...Syracuse/Duke.

I think Fuquan Edwin will have a helluva senior year (1st Team All-BE) and will get a shot at making the league next year, which would definitely help the Hall's perception going forward.

I think you're really onto something here. Getting players who become big stars in the NBA is a huge boost for a program.

Georgetown is a classic case. Despite their dominance in the mid '80's, ultimately they won only a single championship. Hardly something that establishes them as a legendary program. But they produced a string of big men - Ewing, Mourning, and Mutombo - and followed them with Allen Iverson, one of the most exciting "little men" the game has ever seen. Those four alone kept Georgetown in a position of prominence until JT III could revive the program more recently. Of course the aura of "Hoya Paranoia" that surrounded the program and the way that Thompson revolutionized the game with his approach to defense didn't hurt either.

Damn good point about the JT Jr. Hoyas. Think of all that free pub the hoyas got with those 4 players combing for what 50+ NBA seasons!

Great coaches can also help to sell programs because they make for great TV. Al McGuire was certainly that kind of coach at Marquette. Gerry Tarkanian created a prominence for UNLV that went beyond anything they accomplished on the court. Coaches can be stars too and the original Big East had a group of coaches who were also interesting personalities, which certainly helped the league's TV appeal and star power.

Bingo, focusing on the coach makes this point about sending players to the league over winning even more clear. Calapari hadn't won big until the year before last but he's been the biggest rock star in coaching for close to a decade now. I don't think Calapari is the biggest rock star coach now because he can recruit the best players every year? I think Calapari gets the best recruits every year because of his track record of putting players in the league (and himself as a coach) which in turn makes him the rock star he's become?

[aughnanure]

I guess you and I have different definitions of national power, because to me you just described a team with at best a regional following as of late. For all the success they may have had, (outside of the title, plenty of teams of similar records) a majority of people right now would not include them in the conversation. Based on history is that fair? Maybe, maybe not. But a team that hasn't made it past the sweet sixteen since 1996 isn't exactly going to be at the forefront of the public consciousnesses.

Also don't confuse the above with me saying that butler is a national power (far from it) but in terms of recent performance I'd say they are at least on equal footing with Arkansas in terms of national recognition at present.

Whoah, who said "national power"? Their just a very well known national basketball brand - probably top 20 or top 25. The point was "brand names" and Arkansas and St. John's having bigger ones than than VCU, Wichita St. because they've earned theirs over a longer period of time. Also, Texas, Arkansas, Louisiana, and Missouri are pretty big regions to be known in. Sure, its regional but these aren't mutually exclusive labels. You can be a regional player and a nationally known name - and it was a HUGE deal when they won and Clinton being at the games. Arkansas earned their reputation and name. It's not Kansas, but its more than most every Big East team.

People know Arkansas basketball. Period. To say even half of the Big East are bigger national names than the Razerbacks is just wrong. That's all.

[Friarfan2]

To say brand recognition is not important is ridiculous. The reason we just got half a billion dollars from fox is because of brand recognition.

Look, if providence, DePaul and seton hall are the top teams in the league in a couple of years, and nova, Georgetown and Marquette are missing the dance, the perception will be that the big east was a step down, it hurt the power programs and diluted the talent available, and it hurt the major brands of the conference. The perception will be that providence, seton hall and DePaul are only winning because the big east took a step back and hurt the schools that used to compete on a higher level.

Fair or not, brand recognition is important. The four biggest brands are nova, Georgetown, Marquette and St. John's.

Look at the acc. Most of that conference sucked for a decade. But unc and duke are huge brands, they performed well, the conference got respect. Maybe not from all hard core hoops fans who,would see the rest of the conference sucked, but for the public at large they got the respect.

We have four major brands I this conference. They are the teams that need to perform for the national perception to stay solid. Villanova and georgetown are by far the two largest brands, they are the two teams that I would say would benefit the conference the most if they succeeded.

[Daffron24]

To say brand recognition is not important is ridiculous. The reason we just got half a billion dollars from fox is because of brand recognition.

Look, if providence, DePaul and seton hall are the top teams in the league in a couple of years, and nova, Georgetown and Marquette are missing the dance, the perception will be that the big east was a step down, it hurt the power programs and diluted the talent available, and it hurt the major brands of the conference. The perception will be that providence, seton hall and DePaul are only winning because the big east took a step back and hurt the schools that used to compete on a higher level.

Fair or not, brand recognition is important. The four biggest brands are nova, Georgetown, Marquette and St. John's.

Look at the acc. Most of that conference sucked for a decade. But unc and duke are huge brands, they performed well, the conference got respect. Maybe not from all hard core hoops fans who,would see the rest of the conference sucked, but for the public at large they got the respect.

We have four major brands I this conference. They are the teams that need to perform for the national perception to stay solid. Villanova and georgetown are by far the two largest brands, they are the two teams that I would say would benefit the conference the most if they succeeded.

While I agree with most of what you said I tend to disagree with Nova and Georgetown perception. Yes this is the Big East, but it is far from being just an east coast conference. With the addition of 3 midwest teams I think it is important that the midwest teams succeed as well. Many high level recruits come from the midwest and it is important that the midwest teams succeed to help with recruiting the best midwest players. If the BE wants to stay strong and have national recognition, especially if we add SLU or Dayton down the road, we need to build national recognition in the midwest. With the loss of Cincy and Louisville, teams like MU, Creighton, Xavier, ad Butler need to continue to succeed to build the BE brand and keep it relevant.

[TheHall]

To say brand recognition is not important is ridiculous. The reason we just got half a billion dollars from fox is because of brand recognition.

Look, if providence, DePaul and seton hall are the top teams in the league in a couple of years, and nova, Georgetown and Marquette are missing the dance, the perception will be that the big east was a step down, it hurt the power programs and diluted the talent available, and it hurt the major brands of the conference. The perception will be that providence, seton hall and DePaul are only winning because the big east took a step back and hurt the schools that used to compete on a higher level....

Brand recognition is huge agreed, but new & respected brands are developed all the time. In the OG Big East Uconn was a small fry & SJU was one of the big dogs. But we all know now that the fact those roles switched dramatically in the 90's it damn sure didn't hurt the last version of BE's perception at all. If prov, shu, or depaul dominates the BE by recruiting top 50 players on the regular, putting players in the NBA, and having coaches win a lot of games in march & maybe even april like Uconn did, no rational person can say the league took a step back.

[Friarfan2]

The hall,

If seton hall, providence and DePaul are winning multiple national championships, like uconn did, then sure, it will be fine.

But we haven't had one of our teams win it all in 28 yrs. If it turns out that providence,creighton, DePaul and shu are making the tournament, sometimes making the second weekend, not really threatening the final four, while the more marquee brands are sitting at home, that would be much worse than if the marquee brands were making the dance, sometimes making the second weekend. If you have Georgetown, nova and Marquette still making the second weekend, they keep the perception of strength. The other schools are not perceived that way, and it will be a hit to the conference.

[TheHall]

The hall,

If seton hall, providence and DePaul are winning multiple national championships, like uconn did, then sure, it will be fine.

But we haven't had one of our teams win it all in 28 yrs. If it turns out that providence,creighton, DePaul and shu are making the tournament, sometimes making the second weekend, not really threatening the final four, while the more marquee brands are sitting at home, that would be much worse than if the marquee brands were making the dance, sometimes making the second weekend. If you have Georgetown, nova and Marquette still making the second weekend, they keep the perception of strength. The other schools are not perceived that way, and it will be a hit to the conference.

I feel you ff2 but I also feel what cooley has been doing up there. The Hall is also making more noise on the trail than they have in years. And for those who think SHU is terrible they don't realize that they were poised for a NCAA bid last year before injuries ravaged the team. This year should be the year they take that needed step. Depaul will have good news either way. If they land Alexander that should be a program-changer. But if they don't get him and under -achieve again with a pretty good team this year, OP will be out and Depaul will make a big-time hire (with Fox buck$) who will take them to the next level like SJU did hiring Lavs.

Realignment is creating come new winners and losers. As a SHU fan knowing that Cuse, Uconn, RU & even Pitt can't offer the same pitch as SHU anymore means we have some new competitive edges that should help a great deal, like Fox Sports platform, MSG, BE tradition, Gus & Raff, etc. We've always had competitive disadvantages with those schools so nothing changes there. As a prov fan you have to feel the same about the opportunity facing the friar program.

On your last point I agree the league has to consistently send teams to elite 8's at the minimum. I just don't agree it needs to be the few schools being mentioned, anyone will do. One of the things that demonstrated the strength of the last version BE was its stretch of sending so many different teams to the ff4 year after year. Not just the same couple of teams like the ACC, SEC, etc.

[DumpsterFireA10]

The Big East is as good as all of its members are.

That said, everyone needs to play well OOC. That will happen. The Big East will be a Top 3 league next year. I have zero doubt in that.

ACC, Big 10, Big East, Big 12, SEC, Pac-12. Then other irrelevant entities.