Delaney: Not our job "to be minor leagues"

[Bill Marsh]

Either Delany is out of touch with reality or he thinks we're really dumb and that he can scam us. College football and basketball are clearly the de facto minor leagues for the NFL and NBA. The pro leagues just don't control them. Not all minor leagues are controlled by pro entities. And paying players is right around the corner. See the recent article in Time magazine.

[marquette]

Michigan can get 100k people to watch "minor league" football against EMU & you don't think if the NCAA lost its anti-trust protection that no market would pop up to get those 100K butts in the stands.

I think the Ann Arbor Wolverines would draw around 10-14,000/game, similar to other minor league teams. You take the University of Michigan off the uniform and you lose the support of the alumni and the state as a whole. The NBDL gets 2-5,000/game. That's probably not the plateau for football, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near 100,000. I guarantee you there would be a massive dropoff in attendance, tv coverage, press coverage, and donations the day the team disassociated itself from the university. That name on the front of the jersey is worth way more than the one on the back. People simply would not drive in from hours away or fly in a plane across the country for a team representing Ann Arbor, especially not with Detroit right there.

[TheHall]

Michigan can get 100k people to watch "minor league" football against EMU & you don't think if the NCAA lost its anti-trust protection that no market would pop up to get those 100K butts in the stands.

I think the Ann Arbor Wolverines would draw around 10-14,000/game, similar to other minor league teams. You take the University of Michigan off the uniform and you lose the support of the alumni and the state as a whole. The NBDL gets 2-5,000/game. That's probably not the plateau for football, but I wouldn't put it anywhere near 100,000. I guarantee you there would be a massive dropoff in attendance, tv coverage, press coverage, and donations the day the team disassociated itself from the university. That name on the front of the jersey is worth way more than the one on the back. People simply would not drive in from hours away or fly in a plane across the country for a team representing Ann Arbor, especially not with Detroit right there.

If I played at UM & Desmond Howard or Charles Woodson or Tom Brady played for the Ann Arbor Wolverines I seriously disagree. And who do you think ESPN would be televising. My point is, there are no existing minor league sports that would bring the money like fb & bball period, so that 10-14,000 a game number is not a god barometer. The closest approximation is the NCAA version of fb & bbabll and that's why the NCAA has those two sports on lock.

[marquette]

If I played at UM & Desmond Howard or Charles Woodson or Tom Brady played for the Ann Arbor Wolverines I seriously disagree. And who do you think ESPN would be televising. My point is, there are no existing minor league sports that would bring the money like fb & bball period, so that 10-14,000 a game number is not a god barometer. The closest approximation is the NCAA version of fb & bbabll and that's why the NCAA has those two sports on lock.

Most of these cities barley have the population of the stadium. You won't get every single person in the city to turn out, and nobody else has any reason to support that team with the major league team right there. This is the case with nearly every

You are confusing the benefits the minor leagues get from affiliation with the school with the interest in the minor leagues (in this case D1 basketball and football). People come to the games that aren't even sports fans simply because they love their alma mater and want to support them. That is the reason that Madison, or Ann Arbor, or East Lansing or (insert whatever college town here) get fans to turn out. (1) Alumni and students come to support their university and (2) those who aren't alumni/students come to support what they view as the sporting representation of their state. My family would care about as much about the Madison Badgers as they do about the Green Bay Blizzard, that is to say my dad would likely not be going out of his way to get to Madison for a game every year.. I suggest you look at minor leagues here and around the world and you will see a common thread. They don't draw the interest or money that major leagues do.

I think we will likely have to agree to disagree here, though. It doesn't seem like either one of us is really accepting the other's premise, which is fine, but I'm about spent on this topic.

[ChelseaFriar]

Back when I lived 1 hour from Providence, I had season tickets to the Friars. If I still lived in that area, I would still have season tickets.

If the Friars were replaced by an NBDL team, I would probably never go to a game (unless a former Friar was playing and there was nothing on TV) even if I lived in Providence.

I now live in NYC and I'm not going to St. John's and Seton Hall games (I went to the SJU/ND game last year at MSG because my friend had one of the new luxury boxes) other than when the Friars are in town.

My point is, I attend games because it's the Friars, not because I really need to attend a basketball game.

[TheHall]

I think you guys are under estimating the powers that really prop the NCAA's up. Seems like you can't picture a world without the anti-trust protected NCAA; EVERYTHING would be different. In Europe, sub-NBA ball is hugely supported & profitable. ESPN televises hs fball & bball regularly now not because there in no market for this level of competition, its exactly the opposite,

Also, most college grads support their schools because of & through the sports programs, not donations related to other departments. Also most college sports fans aren't necessarily graduates or even connected to the schools themselves. That's one reason why when a school sucks support wanes and vice versa. The billion dollar beast that is minor league bball & fb need a home true but it doesn't have to live in the NCAA structure. The NCAA structure just happens to be the most profitable (low cost labor). Don't get it twisted without the best ballers in the country going to these schools "college pride" would be more like high school pride, which is cool but doesn't create or support an ESPN. How many our your high school games do you think you will go to over the next 20 years? Would we really be posting in this forum if the best players in the country/world for their ages, weren't playing in college.

[marquette]

I think you guys are under estimating the powers that really prop the NCAA's up. Seems like you can't picture a world without the anti-trust protected NCAA; EVERYTHING would be different. In Europe, sub-NBA ball is hugely supported & profitable. ESPN televises hs fball & bball regularly now not because there in no market for this level of competition, its exactly the opposite,

Also, most college grads support their schools because of & through the sports programs, not donations related to other departments. Also most college sports fans aren't necessarily graduates or even connected to the schools themselves. That's one reason why when a school sucks support wanes and vice versa. The billion dollar beast that is minor league bball & fb need a home true but it doesn't have to live in the NCAA structure. The NCAA structure just happens to be the most profitable (low cost labor). Don't get it twisted without the best ballers in the country going to these schools "college pride" would be more like high school pride, which is cool but doesn't create or support an ESPN. How many our your high school games do you think you will go to over the next 20 years? Would we really be posting in this forum if the best players in the country/world for their ages, weren't playing in college.

Alright, I said I was done but you raise a couple more points. The sub-NBA leagues in Europe are the highest level of ball in those countries. The NBA is on at 3am there, good luck getting the 18-34 demographic (most sports fans) to watch at that point. There is also the fact that those leagues "huge popularity" tops out at about 8-12,000 fans per game. Not really a great comparison imo. If you look at the lower leagues in basketball over there, they draw sub 4,000 crowds. Soccer in England draws 60,000/game at the top level. Tops out at 20,000/game at the next level down. This also doesn't address either the players who are forced out after 4 years or the alumni who fly across the country once a year or drive across the state every week for a minor league team. Nobody would do that.

Yep, it's easy to buy a ticket to support your team, instant results. Nobody, and I mean nobody (especially not a regular fan with no other connection), is going to donate $2 million in order to help a minor league team win a minor league crown. Forget about it. These are private enterprises and in the US we let private businesses stand or fall on their own merit. Nobody leaves their estate to the Packers, despite how rabid the fanbase is. People leave estates to schools all the time. People do want to be associated with their schools more when they are doing well. That's a pretty basic fact. D1 ball also did pretty well from the '70s through 2006, when players could go to the NBA right out of high school. College pride isn't going anywhere because we choose our college (and our college chose us). We weren't forced there by our parents or district. We saw something we liked there, and said "I want to invest 4 years of my life and thousands of dollars in that institution." You massively underestimate this commitment, and the loyalty that people feel when their lives are enriched by a degree from an University.

There will be a market for lower level ball of all kinds, but you can forget it being anywhere near what it is now.

[TheHall]

I can't argue that you might not be right, but to me it defies logic as to why the benefactors of the existing NCAA system has fought so hard for so long not to maintain this system & allow young athletes to go on the open market if they believed much of what you are saying. Look how hard they make it for athletes to transfer for example.

[jayball]

I think you guys are under estimating the powers that really prop the NCAA's up. Seems like you can't picture a world without the anti-trust protected NCAA; EVERYTHING would be different. In Europe, sub-NBA ball is hugely supported & profitable. ESPN televises hs fball & bball regularly now not because there in no market for this level of competition, its exactly the opposite,

Also, most college grads support their schools because of & through the sports programs, not donations related to other departments. Also most college sports fans aren't necessarily graduates or even connected to the schools themselves. That's one reason why when a school sucks support wanes and vice versa. The billion dollar beast that is minor league bball & fb need a home true but it doesn't have to live in the NCAA structure. The NCAA structure just happens to be the most profitable (low cost labor). Don't get it twisted without the best ballers in the country going to these schools "college pride" would be more like high school pride, which is cool but doesn't create or support an ESPN. How many our your high school games do you think you will go to over the next 20 years? Would we really be posting in this forum if the best players in the country/world for their ages, weren't playing in college.

I disagree wholeheartedly. People have emotional and family connections to universities that will not be easily replaced by whatever minor league system you have in mind. The nostalgia, tradition, and a whole lot of other stuff make college sports popular and not easily replaced.

[TheHall]

I think you guys are under estimating the powers that really prop the NCAA's up. Seems like you can't picture a world without the anti-trust protected NCAA; EVERYTHING would be different. In Europe, sub-NBA ball is hugely supported & profitable. ESPN televises hs fball & bball regularly now not because there in no market for this level of competition, its exactly the opposite,

Also, most college grads support their schools because of & through the sports programs, not donations related to other departments. Also most college sports fans aren't necessarily graduates or even connected to the schools themselves. That's one reason why when a school sucks support wanes and vice versa. The billion dollar beast that is minor league bball & fb need a home true but it doesn't have to live in the NCAA structure. The NCAA structure just happens to be the most profitable (low cost labor). Don't get it twisted without the best ballers in the country going to these schools "college pride" would be more like high school pride, which is cool but doesn't create or support an ESPN. How many our your high school games do you think you will go to over the next 20 years? Would we really be posting in this forum if the best players in the country/world for their ages, weren't playing in college.

I disagree wholeheartedly. People have emotional and family connections to universities that will not be easily replaced by whatever minor league system you have in mind. The nostalgia, tradition, and a whole lot of other stuff make college sports popular and not easily replaced.

Not easily at all, but we are talking about A MULTI-BILLION DOLLAR INDUSTRY. There's no comparable industry in this country built on the sentiments you are referring to (and those I share), instead their are plenty that are constructed to "exploit" those and similar notions (Christmas for example). TV & the NCAA do a helluva job at that, but you'll see how entrepreneurial they can be if the student-athlete designation turns into an employee designation. The money & the fans will flock to where ever the entertainment is, just like we do now, even if it's a small catholic school in NJ.