Holy Land fan poll - who finishes in 4th place

[Westbrook36]

And people were saying Nova fans were taking this too personal, might want to include Marquette and Georgetown fans in that basket.

As I said in another thread, you can tell the season's just around the corner, it's starting to heat up round here.

Yeah but.... That was me you were blasting on the other thread, and I'm a Nova fan! I did think you guys were too thin skinned on any objective view that there is more confidence that Buzz and JT3 will deliver the expected regular season wins. It seems the prevailing view here confirms that, and that GTown and Maquette will poll in the top 2 spots.

Nova has the talent to match anyone in the conference, no? GTown and Marquette have more returning talent questions, no? Yet looking beyond the talent, there is more confidence those programs will deliver. Not just from me, an objective Nova fan not caught up in the homerism, but it seems to prove out here in the polls as well.

Marquette fans here are confident that they will make the tournament in a reloading year. They expect more than that in even a down year. Nova fans were tickled to make the tournament last year and thought it was a very good year. Expectations. Marquette is justifiably confident.

Yeah, don't see that at all. These guys are clearly taking this more personal.

So were blind homers if we believe Villanova actually might be the best team in the BE? Nova has more than enough talent, and that's not including Ennis or the incoming freshman. If your a true Nova fan(and not a rival big 5 fan) you know everyone besides Mouph is back, a year older and a year wiser. So the Johnnies and Friars can claim this as a legit reason for optimism and improvement but Nova can't? Marquette and Georgetown can say they return most(dubious at best) of their key players and claim this is the reason for their "confidence" (some would say over-confidence), but again Villanova can't? Did I get that right?

And spare me the expect more BS, Marquette or Georgetown aren't on a higher level or plateau than Nova, you'd think someone said they fall off the edge of the world or something. People are just saying they could easily see those 2 teams winding up with 22-9 or 21-10 records and a #7 or 8 seed in the dance. Oh, the horror. If Marquette and Georgetown never experience down years, as some of their fans claim, then how come they're not 27-4 or 26-5 every year? Every school has up and down years, some more up some more down, but to say otherwise is just silly, disingenuous, and quite frankly condescending.

[Bill Marsh]

Yeah but.... That was me you were blasting on the other thread, and I'm a Nova fan! I did think you guys were too thin skinned on any objective view that there is more confidence that Buzz and JT3 will deliver the expected regular season wins. It seems the prevailing view here confirms that, and that GTown and Maquette will poll in the top 2 spots.

Nova has the talent to match anyone in the conference, no? GTown and Marquette have more returning talent questions, no? Yet looking beyond the talent, there is more confidence those programs will deliver. Not just from me, an objective Nova fan not caught up in the homerism, but it seems to prove out here in the polls as well.

Marquette fans here are confident that they will make the tournament in a reloading year. They expect more than that in even a down year. Nova fans were tickled to make the tournament last year and thought it was a very good year. Expectations. Marquette is justifiably confident.

Yeah, don't see that at all. These guys are clearly taking this more personal.

So were blind homers if we believe Villanova actually might be the best team in the BE? Nova has more than enough talent, and that's not including Ennis or the incoming freshman. If your a true Nova fan(and not a rival big 5 fan) you know everyone besides Mouph is back, a year older and a year wiser. So the Johnnies and Friars can claim this as a legit reason for optimism and improvement but Nova can't? Marquette and Georgetown can say they return most(dubious at best) of their key players and claim this is the reason for their "confidence" (some would say over-confidence), but again Villanova can't? Did I get that right?

And spare me the expect more BS, Marquette or Georgetown aren't on a higher level or plateau than Nova, you'd think someone said they fall off the edge of the world or something. People are just saying they could easily see those 2 teams winding up with 22-9 or 21-10 records and a #7 or 8 seed in the dance. Oh, the horror. If Marquette and Georgetown never experience down years, as some of their fans claim, then how come they're not 27-4 or 26-5 every year? Every school has up and down years, some more up some more down, but to say otherwise is just silly, disingenuous, and quite frankly condescending.

Completely agree with everything you said. I expect Villanova to be battling for the title with Georgetown. Jay is a proven winner, they have excellent talent, and there's lots of experience. What more could anyone want in a contender?

[MUBoxer]

And people were saying Nova fans were taking this too personal, might want to include Marquette and Georgetown fans in that basket.

As I said in another thread, you can tell the season's just around the corner, it's starting to heat up round here.

Yeah but.... That was me you were blasting on the other thread, and I'm a Nova fan! I did think you guys were too thin skinned on any objective view that there is more confidence that Buzz and JT3 will deliver the expected regular season wins. It seems the prevailing view here confirms that, and that GTown and Maquette will poll in the top 2 spots.

Nova has the talent to match anyone in the conference, no? GTown and Marquette have more returning talent questions, no? Yet looking beyond the talent, there is more confidence those programs will deliver. Not just from me, an objective Nova fan not caught up in the homerism, but it seems to prove out here in the polls as well.

Marquette fans here are confident that they will make the tournament in a reloading year. They expect more than that in even a down year. Nova fans were tickled to make the tournament last year and thought it was a very good year. Expectations. Marquette is justifiably confident.

Yeah, don't see that at all. These guys are clearly taking this more personal.

So were blind homers if we believe Villanova actually might be the best team in the BE? Nova has more than enough talent, and that's not including Ennis or the incoming freshman. If your a true Nova fan(and not a rival big 5 fan) you know everyone besides Mouph is back, a year older and a year wiser. So the Johnnies and Friars can claim this as a legit reason for optimism and improvement but Nova can't? Marquette and Georgetown can say they return most(dubious at best) of their key players and claim this is the reason for their "confidence" (some would say over-confidence), but again Villanova can't? Did I get that right?

And spare me the expect more BS, Marquette or Georgetown aren't on a higher level or plateau than Nova, you'd think someone said they fall off the edge of the world or something. People are just saying they could easily see those 2 teams winding up with 22-9 or 21-10 records and a #7 or 8 seed in the dance. Oh, the horror. If Marquette and Georgetown never experience down years, as some of their fans claim, then how come they're not 27-4 or 26-5 every year? Every school has up and down years, some more up some more down, but to say otherwise is just silly, disingenuous, and quite frankly condescending.

To be fair I consider MU GTown AND Nova a tier above everyone else (for now) not sure why Nova is considered lower than those two. Still just as much of a Basketball elitist as you portray just I include Nova as part of the "big 3" of this conference.

[Bill Marsh]

Seeing as mayo was suspended half the season you can't really include his numbers. Anyways try finding another team who's front court has 20 years of experience between the 3 PFs and 2 Cs. You're going on about experience an such well that's experience that far and away bears out any other front court in this league. I'm not saying there aren't questions at SG and a few at PG. but C, PF, and SF you are acting like we're screwed because we lost Lockett who was on the team for a year, not exactly a player who grew within the program the way these other guys did, Cadougan hurts yes but the guy was never an elite point gaurd. Heck you are talking about purely starters well freshman year he was injured so wasn't starting following year he goes to the S16 splitting time with buycks, JR year he goes to another S16 splitting time with Blue and Wilson, last year he's the actual go to PG so it's not like he's been a "go to guy" over the years. Blue hurts he's started 3 years and really stepped up and we dont have any truly battle tested guys at SG that's the only tough loss not easily replaced.

And I know you've addressed this but last years team was most certainly not our best team 08-09 and 11-12 would've destroyed that team the way Florida destroyed them. That was a team that got some lucky seeding against a Butler team we were trying to get revenge against, A seriously under rated Davidson team (ok true test) and a wayyyy overrated Miami team.

Finally all your arguments are trying to use other teams logic for a team that isn't like other teams. This is a much easier transition than last year was supposed to be or 09-10 and 10-11 were supposed to be. This isn't a rebuilding year at all for us, it's a regular year.

Who said you're screwed? I said you're rebuilding. That's a fact. Some rebuilding years are successful immediately, some take longer.

By "front court", I assume you mean interior play? I think of a front court as including 2 forwards, but I don't think that's the way you mean it. So, yes, I agree that Marquette should have a very strong inside game. What does that prove? The other 3 positions have been vacated and the team has to be rebuilt at this other 3 positions.

Why are you downgrading Cadougan? What does it matter if he was an "elite" PG? Whatever that is. He was a 4* recruit when they brought him in and more than that, he was one tough SOB. The games I saw, Marquette won because of its defense and its ability to perform in the clutch. That was Cadougan. The other thing you're overlooking is that Blue had PG skills. They didn't have to depend on just one guy to run the offense, but now they're both gone. Who's left at the most important position in college basketball? Derrick Wilson? The only other PGs I see on the roster are freshmen. Duane Wilson comes with a big reputation, so maybe he can step in right away. Unlikely Buzz will go that route. So, it's probably Wilson who played 13 mpg last year. He'll have to double those minutes at a minimum. That will be a big adjustment for everyone - especially without Blue.

Lockett got a lot of rebounds from the wing. Who's going to do that this year? As good as the interior play is, there will be other rebound opportunities besides the ones down low. Someone's got to pick those up. And then of course there's Blue. He was the go to guy, the leading scorer. Who's going to pick up that role?

Finally, why can't I count Mayo's minutes? Isn't he one of the 8 returning veterans who was mentioned. When he played, it was only 14 mpg. If he's given more responsibility, then it will mean that he'll have to step up. Does anyone know if he can do that?

The argument that Marquette fans seem to keep advancing is that MU will win because they've won in the past. So, I guess MU is so special that anyone can be plugged in and the team will keep winning because of the name on the uniform? I don't mean to be a smart a** but that's the way it comes across. The best players on the roster in a position to replace the 3 departed starters are freshmen. But Buzz doesn't like to play freshmen. If he goes with vets, the talent level won't be up to what a lot of the league's competitors will be throwing at you. If he does change his pattern and plays some of the freshmen, then there will be rookie mistakes to deal with.

Providence may have been a .500 team last year but they only lose one player from that team. They had a 5* recruit last year who wasn't available first semester. Once he joined the team and things started to jell, their trajectory really started to improve. In the second half, they were better than a .500 team. But even .500 teams get better with an extra year of experience. this is a Providence team that once they got it rolling last year beat Villanova twice, beat Cincinnati, blew out Notre Dame, and took UConn into OT twice.

St. John's has everybody back. They were under .500 in the BE, but that's because they lost their last 3 league games for which leading scorer D'Angelo Harrison was suspended. in that stretch they lost, for example, to a Notre Dame team that they had beaten earlier in the season. They had a winning record in conference before losing those 3 games. Including the postseason, they lost 5 out of 6 with Harrison suspended. They were better than their record showed. Harrison is back along with everyone else. With another year of experience, they too will get better. They have a ton of talent and will have to be reckoned with. Let's not forget that even without Harrison, Marquette had to go into OT last year against the Johnnies and barely won a 2-point game. Yet, I'm expected to believe that they'll be lots better than St. John's despite losing 3 players and St. John's getting harrison back?

Marquette isn't the only program that has the ability to grow and improve. Georgetown and Villanova both bring back more talent from NCAA teams. Other teams around the league like SJU and PC have been growing their programs, improving the conference's depth. It will be a dog fight. No one will hand Marquette anything.

[MUBoxer]

That's an awful lot for me to respond to on my phone...

[MUSeashells&Balloons]

Marquette isn't the only program that has the ability to grow and improve. Georgetown and Villanova both bring back more talent from NCAA teams. Other teams around the league like SJU and PC have been growing their programs, improving the conference's depth. It will be a dog fight. No one will hand Marquette anything.

Agreed.

[Westbrook36]

So were blind homers if we believe Villanova actually might be the best team in the BE? Nova has more than enough talent, and that's not including Ennis or the incoming freshman. If your a true Nova fan(and not a rival big 5 fan) you know everyone besides Mouph is back, a year older and a year wiser. So the Johnnies and Friars can claim this as a legit reason for optimism and improvement but Nova can't? Marquette and Georgetown can say they return most(dubious at best) of their key players and claim this is the reason for their "confidence" (some would say over-confidence), but again Villanova can't? Did I get that right?

And spare me the expect more BS, Marquette or Georgetown aren't on a higher level or plateau than Nova, you'd think someone said they fall off the edge of the world or something. People are just saying they could easily see those 2 teams winding up with 22-9 or 21-10 records and a #7 or 8 seed in the dance. Oh, the horror. If Marquette and Georgetown never experience down years, as some of their fans claim, then how come they're not 27-4 or 26-5 every year? Every school has up and down years, some more up some more down, but to say otherwise is just silly, disingenuous, and quite frankly condescending.

To be fair I consider MU GTown AND Nova a tier above everyone else (for now) not sure why Nova is considered lower than those two. Still just as much of a Basketball elitist as you portray just I include Nova as part of the "big 3" of this conference.

Agreed, the pecking order of the BE is MU/G'Town/& Nova in any placement in the top 3 positions, depending on ones opinion. Creighton, St. John's, Xavier, & Providence all have the potential to reach the top tier as well, I just like to see some consist success in the BE and tourney before I place them in the top tier.

[MUBoxer]

So were blind homers if we believe Villanova actually might be the best team in the BE? Nova has more than enough talent, and that's not including Ennis or the incoming freshman. If your a true Nova fan(and not a rival big 5 fan) you know everyone besides Mouph is back, a year older and a year wiser. So the Johnnies and Friars can claim this as a legit reason for optimism and improvement but Nova can't? Marquette and Georgetown can say they return most(dubious at best) of their key players and claim this is the reason for their "confidence" (some would say over-confidence), but again Villanova can't? Did I get that right?

And spare me the expect more BS, Marquette or Georgetown aren't on a higher level or plateau than Nova, you'd think someone said they fall off the edge of the world or something. People are just saying they could easily see those 2 teams winding up with 22-9 or 21-10 records and a #7 or 8 seed in the dance. Oh, the horror. If Marquette and Georgetown never experience down years, as some of their fans claim, then how come they're not 27-4 or 26-5 every year? Every school has up and down years, some more up some more down, but to say otherwise is just silly, disingenuous, and quite frankly condescending.

To be fair I consider MU GTown AND Nova a tier above everyone else (for now) not sure why Nova is considered lower than those two. Still just as much of a Basketball elitist as you portray just I include Nova as part of the "big 3" of this conference.

Agreed, the pecking order of the BE is MU/G'Town/& Nova in any placement in the top 3 positions, depending on ones opinion. Creighton, St. John's, Xavier, & Providence all have the potential to reach the top tier as well, I just like to see some consist success in the BE and tourney before I place them in the top tier.

Exactly 3 programs have championships, 3 programs have at the most final fours, were three of the four programs with final fours in the modern era, and the three most tournament appearances are nova 33 MU 31 (32 invites) GTown 29. We're the big 3. Xavier has the recent tradition to reach us but gotta see them in the new conference and SJU has the overall tradition but has really fallen on hard times this past decade and needs a championship badly. So till shown otherwise were the representatives of the conference elite year in and year out.

[dmac80]

Exactly 3 programs have championships, 3 programs have at the most final fours, the three most tournament appearances are nova 33 MU 31 (32 invites) GTown 29. We're the big 3. Xavier has the recent tradition to reach us but gotta see them in the new conference and SJU has the overall tradition but has really fallen on hard times this past decade and needs a championship badly. So till shown otherwise were the representatives of the conference elite year in and year out.

Agreed on conference pecking order. I'd argue that the "big 3" need a champshionship badly to re-establish themselves as among the very top brands nationally. Right now they are the bottom of tier2 nationally since none has won a title since the 80s. Then again look how quickly 1 title can re-elevate to elite status (Louisville). St John's, PC etc need to get back into relevance by getting into the dance and making some noise.

[aughnanure]

So were blind homers if we believe Villanova actually might be the best team in the BE? Nova has more than enough talent, and that's not including Ennis or the incoming freshman. If your a true Nova fan(and not a rival big 5 fan) you know everyone besides Mouph is back, a year older and a year wiser. So the Johnnies and Friars can claim this as a legit reason for optimism and improvement but Nova can't? Marquette and Georgetown can say they return most(dubious at best) of their key players and claim this is the reason for their "confidence" (some would say over-confidence), but again Villanova can't? Did I get that right?

And spare me the expect more BS, Marquette or Georgetown aren't on a higher level or plateau than Nova, you'd think someone said they fall off the edge of the world or something. People are just saying they could easily see those 2 teams winding up with 22-9 or 21-10 records and a #7 or 8 seed in the dance. Oh, the horror. If Marquette and Georgetown never experience down years, as some of their fans claim, then how come they're not 27-4 or 26-5 every year? Every school has up and down years, some more up some more down, but to say otherwise is just silly, disingenuous, and quite frankly condescending.

To be fair I consider MU GTown AND Nova a tier above everyone else (for now) not sure why Nova is considered lower than those two. Still just as much of a Basketball elitist as you portray just I include Nova as part of the "big 3" of this conference.

Agreed, the pecking order of the BE is MU/G'Town/& Nova in any placement in the top 3 positions, depending on ones opinion. Creighton, St. John's, Xavier, & Providence all have the potential to reach the top tier as well, I just like to see some consist success in the BE and tourney before I place them in the top tier.

This.