Holy Land fan poll - who finishes in 4th place

[MUBoxer]

Sensible analysis.

But how can anyone say that Lavin underachieved? When he had the talent in 2011, he brought them to their highest finish in over a decade. When he had to rebuild in 2012 and he was out of circulation with cancer, they struggled. Last year they had a winning record in a very strong year for the conference until they suspended Harrison, their leading scorer, for disciplinary reasons and they lost their last 3 regular season conference games and 5 of 6 including the postseason. Hard to blame Lavin's game coaching for that one.

I'm ok with that explanation / those excuses. It's just that Lavin at SJU hasn't delivered to the level of JT3 or Buzz yet. Not as much confidence in SJU yet. Lavin is good for the conference. Maybe he wins it this year.

Excuses? LOL.

After 5 years at Marquette, Buzz has 5 NCAA tournaments, an Elite 8 + 2 other Sweet 16's.

Interesting to compare that with Lavin who, after 5 years at UCLA, had 5 NCAA tournaments, an Elite 8 + 3 other Sweet 16's.

Now I know I see the world through blue and yellow glasses but Marquette is no UCLA for what you're able to recruit like there (warm big city) vs here (frozen tundra medium city in the hood) he'd have better damn well have that type of record there because that's why you're supposed to have.

[Dave]

Now I know I see the world through blue and yellow glasses but Marquette is no UCLA for what you're able to recruit like there (warm big city) vs here (frozen tundra medium city in the hood) he'd have better damn well have that type of record there because that's why you're supposed to have.

Well, of course that is the knock on Lavin in California - he had all of that talent from top recruiting classes and did not do enough with it. The fans really were not happy with him, undisciplined offense, and down on his demeanor. And then when his team had the losing season in his last year (with a lot of talent, similar to Nova '11-'12), one bad season was enough to can him.

He will stock the team with good recruits. Yet to be seen if he can coach them to excellence at SJU, imo.

[Bill Marsh]

I'm ok with that explanation / those excuses. It's just that Lavin at SJU hasn't delivered to the level of JT3 or Buzz yet. Not as much confidence in SJU yet. Lavin is good for the conference. Maybe he wins it this year.

Excuses? LOL.

After 5 years at Marquette, Buzz has 5 NCAA tournaments, an Elite 8 + 2 other Sweet 16's.

Interesting to compare that with Lavin who, after 5 years at UCLA, had 5 NCAA tournaments, an Elite 8 + 3 other Sweet 16's.

Now I know I see the world through blue and yellow glasses but Marquette is no UCLA for what you're able to recruit like there (warm big city) vs here (frozen tundra medium city in the hood) he'd have better damn well have that type of record there because that's why you're supposed to have.

Of course the fans see it that way because they were spoiled by John Wooden. The truth about UCLA is that it's become a very difficult place to recruit. The facilities have deteriorated, West Coast time zone means late night broadcasts on ESPN that are missed by the rest of the nation's top recruits, and non-competitive Pac-12 means that there is little interest in their games.

The fact is that UCLA has only 4 Final Four appearances in the past 30 years despite any number of coaches having tried their best. And 3 of those were earned by Ben Howland, who was recently canned because he couldn't recruit there even in the wake of the 3 FF's. The idea that it's easy to recruit and win at UCLA has been disproven time after time.

Your argument seems to be that Buzz is appreciated at Marquette because their are lower expectations for the Marquette program. Huh? Is it really an endorsement for a coach to claim that he's lived up to low expectations?

The fact about the Marquette program is that Buzz inherited a program whose reputation was built by his predecessor. He's done a nice job of maintaining it, but his record is no better than Lavin, or Jay Wright, or JT III, etc in their first 5 years. In fact it's not as good despite the fact that he inherited a program in better shape than what they did. Lavin took on a project at St. John's that is just the opposite of what was handed to Buzz. He's done a tremendous job of turning the program around in spite of a battle with cancer.

I'm not really down on Buzz. I think he's a terrific coach. I just think that expectations are being laid on this team that are unrealistic. I'd be happy to see him prove me wrong.

[Dave]

The truth about UCLA is that it's become a very difficult place to recruit.

Hmm, I was under the impression that UCLA still gets top recruiting classes. I think Lavin had a few, and I think there have been many since. Someone can look it up I'm sure.

Expectations are big out there. Tough place to coach I'm sure. Not nearly as cozy as Nova or Marquette.

[hoyahooligan]

Excuses? LOL.

After 5 years at Marquette, Buzz has 5 NCAA tournaments, an Elite 8 + 2 other Sweet 16's.

Of course the fans see it that way because they were spoiled by John Wooden. The truth about UCLA is that it's become a very difficult place to recruit. The facilities have deteriorated, West Coast time zone means late night broadcasts on ESPN that are missed by the rest of the nation's top recruits, and non-competitive Pac-12 means that there is little interest in their games.

The fact is that UCLA has only 4 Final Four appearances in the past 30 years despite any number of coaches having tried their best. And 3 of those were earned by Ben Howland, who was recently canned because he couldn't recruit there even in the wake of the 3 FF's. The idea that it's easy to recruit and win at UCLA has been disproven time after time.

Your argument seems to be that Buzz is appreciated at Marquette because their are lower expectations for the Marquette program. Huh? Is it really an endorsement for a coach to claim that he's lived up to low expectations?

The fact about the Marquette program is that Buzz inherited a program whose reputation was built by his predecessor. He's done a nice job of maintaining it, but his record is no better than Lavin, or Jay Wright, or JT III, etc in their first 5 years. In fact it's not as good despite the fact that he inherited a program in better shape than what they did. Lavin took on a project at St. John's that is just the opposite of what was handed to Buzz. He's done a tremendous job of turning the program around in spite of a battle with cancer.

I'm not really down on Buzz. I think he's a terrific coach. I just think that expectations are being laid on this team that are unrealistic. I'd be happy to see him prove me wrong.

I disagree with this notion. UCLA had the #2 class in the nation as recently as last year! Recruiting is not why Howland was fired. He was fired because of all the off the court stuff going on. He had no control of his players and all the players hated him once they got there. Getting players to UCLA was never a problem. It was keeping them there with a maniac running the show. Also had #18 class in 2010, #9 in 2009, #1 in 2008, #11 in 2007, #18 in 2005, #5 in 2004. Using Rivals class rankings.

[GumbyDamnit!]

Excuses? LOL.

After 5 years at Marquette, Buzz has 5 NCAA tournaments, an Elite 8 + 2 other Sweet 16's.

Of course the fans see it that way because they were spoiled by John Wooden. The truth about UCLA is that it's become a very difficult place to recruit. The facilities have deteriorated, West Coast time zone means late night broadcasts on ESPN that are missed by the rest of the nation's top recruits, and non-competitive Pac-12 means that there is little interest in their games.

The fact is that UCLA has only 4 Final Four appearances in the past 30 years despite any number of coaches having tried their best. And 3 of those were earned by Ben Howland, who was recently canned because he couldn't recruit there even in the wake of the 3 FF's. The idea that it's easy to recruit and win at UCLA has been disproven time after time.

Your argument seems to be that Buzz is appreciated at Marquette because their are lower expectations for the Marquette program. Huh? Is it really an endorsement for a coach to claim that he's lived up to low expectations?

The fact about the Marquette program is that Buzz inherited a program whose reputation was built by his predecessor. He's done a nice job of maintaining it, but his record is no better than Lavin, or Jay Wright, or JT III, etc in their first 5 years. In fact it's not as good despite the fact that he inherited a program in better shape than what they did. Lavin took on a project at St. John's that is just the opposite of what was handed to Buzz. He's done a tremendous job of turning the program around in spite of a battle with cancer.

I'm not really down on Buzz. I think he's a terrific coach. I just think that expectations are being laid on this team that are unrealistic. I'd be happy to see him prove me wrong.

I disagree with this notion. UCLA had the #2 class in the nation as recently as last year! Recruiting is not why Howland was fired. He was fired because of all the off the court stuff going on. He had no control of his players and all the players hated him once they got there. Getting players to UCLA was never a problem. It was keeping them there with a maniac running the show. Also had #18 class in 2010, #9 in 2009, #1 in 2008, #11 in 2007, #18 in 2005, #5 in 2004. Using Rivals class rankings.

Stole my thunder hooligan. UCLA has never had much of a problem getting talent. Finding the right coach was always the issue. Imagine what a coach like Shaka Smart or Brad Stevens could have done with some of the players UCLA has had over the years.

[ChelseaFriar]

Howland's style of play was much more appreciated in blue-collar Pittsburgh and in the rugged BE than it was in glitzy Westwood and the run-and-gun Pac 10. At Pitt he could also recruit tough NYC and other northeast metro players who appreciated grinding it out, locking down on defense and hitting the glass. It's still a different style of basketball on the West Coast.

[Dave]

The truth about UCLA is that it's become a very difficult place to recruit.

Hmm, I was under the impression that UCLA still gets top recruiting classes. I think Lavin had a few, and I think there have been many since. Someone can look it up I'm sure.

Expectations are big out there. Tough place to coach I'm sure. Not nearly as cozy as Nova or Marquette.

"In 2002-03, the Bruins’ have another highly-regarded incoming freshman class, led by two centers, 7-0 Michael Fey and 6-11 Ryan Hollins. Entering the 2001-02 season, UCLA’s incoming freshman class (McDonald’s All-American Cedric Bozeman, Andre Patterson, Dijon Thompson, Fey; on June 29, 2001 the Bruins announced that Fey was not enrolling in Fall 2001, but he is enrolling in Fall 2002) was voted No. 1 in the nation by Sports Illustrated.

Entering the 2000-01 campaign, UCLA’s talented incoming freshmen were T. J. Cummings, son of NBA and DePaul standout Terry Cummings; Josiah Johnson, son of NBA and UCLA great Marques Johnson and Ryan Walcott, whose cousin Mike Bibby was an All-American at Arizona and current standout with the Sacramento Kings. In 1999, the Bruins signed McDonald’s All-American Jason Kapono. In 1998, UCLA landed the No. 1 recruiting class in the country, led by three McDonald’s All-Americans (Dan Gadzuric, JaRon Rush and Ray Young, who will be a redshirt senior this year). In 1997, the Bruins signed the nation’s No. 2 class, led by prep National Player of the Year Baron Davis.

In all, Lavin has recruited six McDonald’s All-Americans to UCLA — 2001 Bozeman, 1999 Kapono, 1998 Gadzuric, Rush, Young and 1997 Davis."

Which made going 10-19 hard to accept...

[Dave]

2004 UCLA. One of the top 25 recruiting classes since 2000.
http://athlonsports.com/college-basketb ... asses-2000
14. 2004 UCLA. The class: Arron Afflalo, Jordan Farmar, Lorenzo Mata-Real, Josh Shipp
This class set the bar for Ben Howland at UCLA as Afflalo, Farmar and Shipp were the top three scorers on the 2006 national runner-up (32-7, 14-4 Pac-10). Farmar was a first-team Pac-12 selection in 2006 while Afflalo returned in 2007 to become an All-American and the top player on another Final Four team. Shipp, who played in three consecutive Final Fours, ended up the No. 12 scorer in UCLA history, only 37 points behind Bill Walton.

[MUBoxer]

Now I know I see the world through blue and yellow glasses but Marquette is no UCLA for what you're able to recruit like there (warm big city) vs here (frozen tundra medium city in the hood) he'd have better damn well have that type of record there because that's why you're supposed to have.

Of course the fans see it that way because they were spoiled by John Wooden. The truth about UCLA is that it's become a very difficult place to recruit. The facilities have deteriorated, West Coast time zone means late night broadcasts on ESPN that are missed by the rest of the nation's top recruits, and non-competitive Pac-12 means that there is little interest in their games.

The fact is that UCLA has only 4 Final Four appearances in the past 30 years despite any number of coaches having tried their best. And 3 of those were earned by Ben Howland, who was recently canned because he couldn't recruit there even in the wake of the 3 FF's. The idea that it's easy to recruit and win at UCLA has been disproven time after time.

Your argument seems to be that Buzz is appreciated at Marquette because their are lower expectations for the Marquette program. Huh? Is it really an endorsement for a coach to claim that he's lived up to low expectations?

The fact about the Marquette program is that Buzz inherited a program whose reputation was built by his predecessor. He's done a nice job of maintaining it, but his record is no better than Lavin, or Jay Wright, or JT III, etc in their first 5 years. In fact it's not as good despite the fact that he inherited a program in better shape than what they did. Lavin took on a project at St. John's that is just the opposite of what was handed to Buzz. He's done a tremendous job of turning the program around in spite of a battle with cancer.

I'm not really down on Buzz. I think he's a terrific coach. I just think that expectations are being laid on this team that are unrealistic. I'd be happy to see him prove me wrong.

Umm buzz inherited a good team and then had possibly the worst rebuilding project possible the next year. Like we lost an entire recruiting class because Crean left, had so many great players leave like Trevor Mbakwe patrick hazel and Scott christopherson. Then lost three players to injury and still made the tournament. You act like buzz has been riding the coat tails of Tom Crean who is a very average coach. I don't know where you're getting your first five years info but Buzz's is better jay wright in 5 years had 3 NITS a sweet 16 and elite 8, JT3 is a bit harder to compare because he had 2 NITS a round of 32 sweet 16 and final four in his first five at GTown. Meanwhile buzz in his first five at MU had a round of 32, a first round, a sweet 16, another sweet 16 and an elite 8. Better than wright hard to compare when you start talking final fours vs more tournament appearances/middle success like s16s