Nice win by Dayton over Gonzaga

[Bluejay]

I'll probably offend somebody by saying this but, Why is there a discussion about Dayton beating a top 10 team especially in the first month of the season. Act like you've been there before. Making a big deal about this is the definition of Mid Major.

Wouldn't there be a similar discussion if any current conference member beat a top ten team?

Yeah, but the difference is the phrase "current conference member."

Honestly, these threads about a team that may be an expansion candidate, if the conference decides to expand someday, beating somebody, who may be good, are too much to take. Most come here to keep up on BE teams, not to make sure they have an updated resume on nonconference teams that might someday be members. If some really want to have this discussion, couldn't we at least it all in one thread? Now that the season is underway, I suspect many here don't really care about the VCUs, SLUs, Daytons, Richmonds, etc. of the world unless a BE team happens to be playing them.

[HoosierPal]

Dayton is not the flavor of the month. The only schools in the conference who had better attendance last year than Dayton were Creighton and Marquette. They were 26th in the country and it was a typical year for them. The conference simply can't ignore that kind of fan base. The only knock on them was that they hadn't delivered on the court. If they are turning that part of the equation around, there really is no reason not to add them.

I don't think that 2 losses takes VCU out of the conversation at all. None of us know what the thinking is among the presidents, but IMO VCU should be a lock as #11. They simply have too many positives and too little competition in the East. After them, the discussion should be which Midwest school to add as #12.

Bill philosophically we are in agreement. But current 'on court success' likely is about 10th on the list of desirable traits for future inclusion. If it were important, DePaul would have been given the "handshake". Fan base and more importantly to the TV guys, market size, are key. I would hope the Presidents of the BE schools have a broader view, and look at educational philosophy, endowments, and possibilities for internships. The league is more than sports. It is about increasing the collegiate experience for students (which includes but is not driven by athletics).

Doesn't Dayton meet all of those other criteria?

They certainly do all the criteria. Excellent school. And that is why they are likely on the candidate list, not because they beat Gonzaga. I think we are in agreement here.

[stever20]

I think Dayton is a very possible candidate. For one- I see them as someone that the VCU supporters would take over Richmond- keeping VCU as an option should we eventually go up to 14(which is possible). The question for me is how much would Xavier try to block Dayton?

[cm5yz6]

[quote="Bill Marsh]

Dayton is not the flavor of the month. The only schools in the conference who had better attendance last year than Dayton were Creighton and Marquette. They were 26th in the country and it was a typical year for them. The conference simply can't ignore that kind of fan base. The only knock on them was that they hadn't delivered on the court. If they are turning that part of the equation around, there really is no reason not to add them.

I don't think that 2 losses takes VCU out of the conversation at all. None of us know what the thinking is among the presidents, but IMO VCU should be a lock as #11. They simply have too many positives and too little competition in the East. After them, the discussion should be which Midwest school to add as #12.[/quote]

Marsh, you think VCU should get in? a lock? I've never heard this opinion from you... please elaborate for the first time on this message board.[/quote]

If Imwere making the decision, they'd be a lock. I'm not. They aren't. My reasoning is as follows:

1. They are East. In order to be true to its founding mission, this conference needs to maintain a balance of members, which maintains at least 50% of the membership in the East. Dave Gavitt's vision, at a time when the Notheast had lost its ability to be consistently competitive on the national level, was that if a platform were developed that could give eastern schools a high profile, then the best high school players in the East could be kept home instead of being lost to basketball factories in other parts of the country. If enough top players were retained in the East, then the region could again challenge for championships. That is exactly what happened.

Gavitt's vision is important because there is no dominant conference in the Northeast, which is why the Big East was so successful. The Big Ten dominates the Great Lakes region and nothing is going to change that. If the center of the conference is allowed to shift to the Midwest, the conference will be relegated to second tier status. The East is where opportunity for the Big East to be the dominant basketball power exists.

2. VCU has established a sufficient track record under multiple coaches, it has made sufficient investment in its program, and it consistently draws sufficient attendance to convince me that it was not a one year wonder in 2011. They are here to stay for the foreseeable future as a power in college basktball.

3. VCU has 30,000 students and it draws about 10% of those from the Northeast. That's close to the entire student body of Providence or Butler. It is equivalent to the entire enrollment at Richmond. It's enough to say that VCU is no just a school with a following in Virginia. They are academically competitive, having a higher admission standard than several of the current Big East members. They are a basketball school with no football program. While they are not private or Catholic, they are a sufficiently good fit to be able to work with the. Rest of the conference.

4. VCU's 30,000 students and public profile which enables them to attract casual fans means that they can deliver strong ratings. As important is the fact that a large fan base on the East Coast can deliver strong support at MSG for the Big East tournament. As the conference's showcase event, it is very important than new members be able to deliver ticket buying fans for that event.

5. Currently ranked, VCU will immediately enhance the status, prestige, and competitiveness of the conference. Even if they simply maintain the conference's current level, that's a plus. Too many other candidates do not have the same track record of success and can potentially serve to water down the conference's competitiveness rather than to enhance or maintain it.[/quote]

dear god Bill, I was being ridiculously sarcastic. you literally give us this detail every three days or so.

[TheBlueTeam]

I think they should join. I guarantee the conference would get more teams into the dance with them in. So instead of hovering around 4-5 invites we could be a lock for 5 every year with a chance for 6 sometimes. I mean seriously, every league needs some bottom feeders to chew through. If not everyone is just gonna cannibalize everyone then we won't get nearly as many invites as we should.

As a basketball asset there are at least two better options then ud in VCU and SLU with both being a better teams then dayton and both with solid programs overall. VCU gives pretty much everything UD can plus a new market and more prestigious name recognition. Plus a better coach and a more entertaining product in the HAVOC I would much rather watch VCU then Dayton



I am so gonna like this board!!!!!!!!

[Xudash]

Two surprise teams this year so far are Dayton and UMass. They are playing much better than I thought they would. I chuckle when people talk about expansion and use the Flavor of the Month theme. You must look long term as to a best fit, not what happened in last year's tourney, or for gosh sakes, last night's games. VCU has lost two games, so now they are out of the expansion conversation? And now Dayton is making a statement? Come on, either they are a good fit or they aren't. Three weeks of 2013 basketball doesn't change that.

Dayton is not the flavor of the month. The only schools in the conference who had better attendance last year than Dayton were Creighton and Marquette. They were 26th in the country and it was a typical year for them. The conference simply can't ignore that kind of fan base. The only knock on them was that they hadn't delivered on the court. If they are turning that part of the equation around, there really is no reason not to add them.

I don't think that 2 losses takes VCU out of the conversation at all. None of us know what the thinking is among the presidents, but IMO VCU should be a lock as #11. They simply have too many positives and too little competition in the East. After them, the discussion should be which Midwest school to add as #12.

Bill philosophically we are in agreement. But current 'on court success' likely is about 10th on the list of desirable traits for future inclusion. If it were important, DePaul would have been given the "handshake". Fan base and more importantly to the TV guys, market size, are key. I would hope the Presidents of the BE schools have a broader view, and look at educational philosophy, endowments, and possibilities for internships. The league is more than sports. It is about increasing the collegiate experience for students (which includes but is not driven by athletics).

Dayton doesn't provide a viable television market, certainly as compared to the opportunity to add new markets in Virginia and Missouri. Overall, if it's about some of the traits you've listed here, then you just put Richmond in the catbird seat, probably to go along with SLU, which is regarded as "#11 in waiting" at this point anyway.

On court success was not rated that lowly originally; it's what enabled Xavier and Butler to receive the initial invitations to join the conference. The league has to be first and foremost about sports, because that is the fuel - more to the point, on court success in mens hoops - that feeds the Fox Sports engine. The league is more than sports, but this isn't the B1G (i.e. where shared research resources, etc. comprise a major component of the conference affiliation).

We're firmly at 10 now and we're now into the season, so this is it for me posting on anything having remotely to do with possible expansion candidates at this time, but I'll conclude by noting that:

- Dayton is off to a good start, but it has a history of tanking in conference play. Let's see what happens from here;
- Dayton may have a good enough year to make the Dance, only to lose Archie to another higher level program. Archie, like Sean at X, will leave Dayton in a heartbeat for a perceived better opportunity.
- It isn't a forgone conclusion that expansion will take place.

BTW, the decision to expand is owned by the Presidents, not Fox.

[Bill Marsh]

[quote="Bill Marsh]

Dayton is not the flavor of the month. The only schools in the conference who had better attendance last year than Dayton were Creighton and Marquette. They were 26th in the country and it was a typical year for them. The conference simply can't ignore that kind of fan base. The only knock on them was that they hadn't delivered on the court. If they are turning that part of the equation around, there really is no reason not to add them.

I don't think that 2 losses takes VCU out of the conversation at all. None of us know what the thinking is among the presidents, but IMO VCU should be a lock as #11. They simply have too many positives and too little competition in the East. After them, the discussion should be which Midwest school to add as #12.[/quote]

Marsh, you think VCU should get in? a lock? I've never heard this opinion from you... please elaborate for the first time on this message board.[/quote]

If Imwere making the decision, they'd be a lock. I'm not. They aren't. My reasoning is as follows:

1. They are East. In order to be true to its founding mission, this conference needs to maintain a balance of members, which maintains at least 50% of the membership in the East. Dave Gavitt's vision, at a time when the Notheast had lost its ability to be consistently competitive on the national level, was that if a platform were developed that could give eastern schools a high profile, then the best high school players in the East could be kept home instead of being lost to basketball factories in other parts of the country. If enough top players were retained in the East, then the region could again challenge for championships. That is exactly what happened.

Gavitt's vision is important because there is no dominant conference in the Northeast, which is why the Big East was so successful. The Big Ten dominates the Great Lakes region and nothing is going to change that. If the center of the conference is allowed to shift to the Midwest, the conference will be relegated to second tier status. The East is where opportunity for the Big East to be the dominant basketball power exists.

2. VCU has established a sufficient track record under multiple coaches, it has made sufficient investment in its program, and it consistently draws sufficient attendance to convince me that it was not a one year wonder in 2011. They are here to stay for the foreseeable future as a power in college basktball.

3. VCU has 30,000 students and it draws about 10% of those from the Northeast. That's close to the entire student body of Providence or Butler. It is equivalent to the entire enrollment at Richmond. It's enough to say that VCU is no just a school with a following in Virginia. They are academically competitive, having a higher admission standard than several of the current Big East members. They are a basketball school with no football program. While they are not private or Catholic, they are a sufficiently good fit to be able to work with the. Rest of the conference.

4. VCU's 30,000 students and public profile which enables them to attract casual fans means that they can deliver strong ratings. As important is the fact that a large fan base on the East Coast can deliver strong support at MSG for the Big East tournament. As the conference's showcase event, it is very important than new members be able to deliver ticket buying fans for that event.

5. Currently ranked, VCU will immediately enhance the status, prestige, and competitiveness of the conference. Even if they simply maintain the conference's current level, that's a plus. Too many other candidates do not have the same track record of success and can potentially serve to water down the conference's competitiveness rather than to enhance or maintain it.[/quote][/quote][/quote]

dear god Bill, I was being ridiculously sarcastic. you literally give us this detail every three days or so.[/quote]

Sorry. Sarcasm doesn't translate so well on a message board. I'll refrain in the future.

[Bill Marsh]

Dayton is not the flavor of the month. The only schools in the conference who had better attendance last year than Dayton were Creighton and Marquette. They were 26th in the country and it was a typical year for them. The conference simply can't ignore that kind of fan base. The only knock on them was that they hadn't delivered on the court. If they are turning that part of the equation around, there really is no reason not to add them.

I don't think that 2 losses takes VCU out of the conversation at all. None of us know what the thinking is among the presidents, but IMO VCU should be a lock as #11. They simply have too many positives and too little competition in the East. After them, the discussion should be which Midwest school to add as #12.

Bill philosophically we are in agreement. But current 'on court success' likely is about 10th on the list of desirable traits for future inclusion. If it were important, DePaul would have been given the "handshake". Fan base and more importantly to the TV guys, market size, are key. I would hope the Presidents of the BE schools have a broader view, and look at educational philosophy, endowments, and possibilities for internships. The league is more than sports. It is about increasing the collegiate experience for students (which includes but is not driven by athletics).

Dayton doesn't provide a viable television market, certainly as compared to the opportunity to add new markets in Virginia and Missouri. Overall, if it's about some of the traits you've listed here, then you just put Richmond in the catbird seat, probably to go along with SLU, which is regarded as "#11 in waiting" at this point anyway.

On court success was not rated that lowly originally; it's what enabled Xavier and Butler to receive the initial invitations to join the conference. The league has to be first and foremost about sports, because that is the fuel - more to the point, on court success in mens hoops - that feeds the Fox Sports engine. The league is more than sports, but this isn't the B1G (i.e. where shared research resources, etc. comprise a major component of the conference affiliation).

We're firmly at 10 now and we're now into the season, so this is it for me posting on anything having remotely to do with possible expansion candidates at this time, but I'll conclude by noting that:

- Dayton is off to a good start, but it has a history of tanking in conference play. Let's see what happens from here;
- Dayton may have a good enough year to make the Dance, only to lose Archie to another higher level program. Archie, like Sean at X, will leave Dayton in a heartbeat for a perceived better opportunity.
- It isn't a forgone conclusion that expansion will take place.

BTW, the decision to expand is owned by the Presidents, not Fox.

Sure. The presidents will pay no attention to what Fox has to say on the matter.

[XUFan09]

I haven't read this whole thread, but UD is really taking it to Baylor. Baylor doesn't look as good as their rank and probably aren't, but still, Dayton's passing to get the wide-open three or the drive to the basket has been impressive.

[Xudash]

....

Sure. The presidents will pay no attention to what Fox has to say on the matter.

Where did I write that the Presidents will not pay attention to Fox's input on prospective expansion opportunities down the road? I was addressing a very specific matter: that expansion decisions, if any, will be owned by the Presidents, which is to say that they won't be initiated or owned by Fox. Otherwise, if the Presidents initiate a discussion concerning possible conference expansion, they'll certainly call in Fox at the appropriate time to gain their insights and input.