UMass Ponders Dropping FB Down to FCS

[stever20]

Well, Ill give you this, if you are going to be wrong its probably better to be loudly wrong. The amplitude is a nice distraction to the weak premises.

Better to attack me than to attack the points that I made.

You said the Big East got teams in that had no business getting in before. Well, if that's the case, won't the same thing happen with the ACC now?

And- right now, we are #4 in RPI and almost all ratings. That's not elite enough to do what you are saying. Big 12 is that conference.

[XUFan09]

What hurts with a 10-team league is that the 6th place team likely has a sub-.500 record and the 5th place team likely has an even .500 record in conference. Since conference record is one piece of the tournament resume pie, this does hurt their chances of making the tournament, especially if they're bubble teams already by the other slices of the pie.

Mmmm...pie.

[notkirkcameron]

Oh come on, Delaware, RI and New Hampshire aren't UMass and I wouldn't call for them to join. I get the point you're making, but I think you're overreaching. No one is calling for North dakoita or Montana or Wyoming either. Massachusetts is different. I think it would be very short-sighted to not grab Massachusetts #1 state school, but grab Virginia's #4. Plus, perfectly matches the last northeast area where the Big East isn't (plus, pisses off BC).

Also, the Fox deal would not be split more ways. It would increase, and every team would keep the same amount. This has been stated and reported multiple times.

Are they really so different from UMass? Remember, this is a conversation about basketball.

UMass: Zero NCAA Tournament appearances since 1998
Delaware: Zero NCAA Tournament appearances since 1999
Rhode Island: Zero NCAA Tournament appearances since 1999
New Hampshire: Zero NCAA Tournament appearances in program history
Maine: Zero NCAA Tournament appearances in program history

[stever20]

What hurts with a 10-team league is that the 6th place team likely has a sub-.500 record and the 5th place team likely has an even .500 record in conference. Since conference record is one piece of the tournament resume pie, this does hurt their chances of making the tournament, especially if they're bubble teams already by the other slices of the pie.

Mmmm...pie.

ding ding ding, we have a winner. If you have something like Big 12 this year- you can get around it.

[ChelseaFriar]

UMASS and URI are actually more similar than they are different from a basketball standpoint. There are some exceptions, like this year and the Camby years. But URI also went to the Elite 8 led by Cuttino Mobley and Tyson Wheeler.

However, UMASS and URI are better programs than Maine, UNH, etc. regardless of NCAA appearances. They have simply always had more talent due to conference affiliation.

[Bill Marsh]

What hurts with a 10-team league is that the 6th place team likely has a sub-.500 record and the 5th place team likely has an even .500 record in conference. Since conference record is one piece of the tournament resume pie, this does hurt their chances of making the tournament, especially if they're bubble teams already by the other slices of the pie.

Mmmm...pie.

If the conference is good enough, a .500 conference record is no problem. Cincinnati got in last year with a .500 conference record. UConn got in with a .500 conference record when it won the national championship in 2011.

Here are the actual records of the 5th/6th place teams from back in then day when the Big East was a 9-10 team conference:

9-team conference
1983 - 5) Syracuse (9-7), 6) Pitt (6-10)
1984 - 4) BC (8-8), 5) St. John's (8-8), 6) Pitt (6-10)
1985 - 5) Pitt (8-8), 6) BC (7-9)
1986 - 5) PC (7-9), 6) Pitt (6-10)
1987 - 4) Providence (10-6) 5) St. John's (10-6), 6), Villanova (6-10)
1988 - 5) St. John's (8-8), 6) Seton Hall (8-8)
1989 - 5) Villanova (7-9), 6) Providence (7-9)
1990 - 5) Villanova (8-8), 6) Providence (8-8)
1991 - 3) UConn (9-7), 4) Seton Hall (9-7), 5) Pitt (9-7), 6) Georgetown (8-8)

10-team conference
1992 - 5) Syracuse (10-8), 6) UConn (10-8)
1993 - 4) UConn (9-9), 5) Providence (9-9), 6) Pitt (9-9), 7) BC (9-9)
1994 - 4) Providence (10-8), 5) Villanova (10-8), 6) Georgetown (10-8)
1995 - 5) Miami (9-9), 6) PC (7-11), 7) Seton Hall (7-11), 8) St. John's (7-11)

So, we can see that in a 10 team league, the 5th place team was as likely to have a winning record as to have a .500 record and the 6th place team was more likely to have not just a .500 record but a winning record than to have a sub .500 record.

Even in a smaller 9 team conference where it was even tougher for the 5th place team to do as well, the 5th place team still had a winning record some of the time and the 6th place team still had a .500 record some of the time. In other words, there's nothing automatic about a 5th place team only being at .500 and a 6th place team having a losing record. Configurations are all over the place depending on how dominant the top teams are and how weak the bottom teams are.

[stever20]

What hurts with a 10-team league is that the 6th place team likely has a sub-.500 record and the 5th place team likely has an even .500 record in conference. Since conference record is one piece of the tournament resume pie, this does hurt their chances of making the tournament, especially if they're bubble teams already by the other slices of the pie.

Mmmm...pie.

If the conference is good enough, a .500 conference record is no problem. Cincinnati got in last year with a .500 conference record. UConn got in with a .500 conference record when it won the national championship in 2011.

Here are the actual records of the 5th/6th place teams from back in then day when the Big East was a 9-10 team conference:

9-team conference
1983 - 5) Syracuse (9-7), 6) Pitt (6-10)
1984 - 4) BC (8-8), 5) St. John's (8-8), 6) Pitt (6-10)
1985 - 5) Pitt (8-8), 6) BC (7-9)
1986 - 5) PC (7-9), 6) Pitt (6-10)
1987 - 4) Providence (10-6) 5) St. John's (10-6), 6), Villanova (6-10)
1988 - 5) St. John's (8-8), 6) Seton Hall (8-8)
1989 - 5) Villanova (7-9), 6) Providence (7-9)
1990 - 5) Villanova (8-8), 6) Providence (8-8)
1991 - 3) UConn (9-7), 4) Seton Hall (9-7), 5) Pitt (9-7), 6) Georgetown (8-8)

10-team conference
1992 - 5) Syracuse (10-8), 6) UConn (10-8)
1993 - 4) UConn (9-9), 5) Providence (9-9), 6) Pitt (9-9), 7) BC (9-9)
1994 - 4) Providence (10-8), 5) Villanova (10-8), 6) Georgetown (10-8)
1995 - 5) Miami (9-9), 6) PC (7-11), 7) Seton Hall (7-11), 8) St. John's (7-11)

So, we can see that in a 10 team league, the 5th place team was as likely to have a winning record as to have a .500 record and the 6th place team was more likely to have not just a .500 record but a winning record than to have a sub .500 record.

Even in a smaller 9 team conference where it was even tougher for the 5th place team to do as well, the 5th place team still had a winning record some of the time and the 6th place team still had a .500 record some of the time. In other words, there's nothing automatic about a 5th place team only being at .500 and a 6th place team having a losing record. Configurations are all over the place depending on how dominant the top teams are and how weak the bottom teams are.

The conference has nothing to do with the .500 teams. The individual team is what matters. Cincy last year went 12-1 OOC. That's why they made the tourney because they had 22 wins. If the wrong team finishes .500, they just won't have a shot.

[Bill Marsh]

Oh come on, Delaware, RI and New Hampshire aren't UMass and I wouldn't call for them to join. I get the point you're making, but I think you're overreaching. No one is calling for North dakoita or Montana or Wyoming either. Massachusetts is different. I think it would be very short-sighted to not grab Massachusetts #1 state school, but grab Virginia's #4. Plus, perfectly matches the last northeast area where the Big East isn't (plus, pisses off BC).

Also, the Fox deal would not be split more ways. It would increase, and every team would keep the same amount. This has been stated and reported multiple times.

Are they really so different from UMass? Remember, this is a conversation about basketball.

UMass: Zero NCAA Tournament appearances since 1998
Delaware: Zero NCAA Tournament appearances since 1999
Rhode Island: Zero NCAA Tournament appearances since 1999
New Hampshire: Zero NCAA Tournament appearances in program history
Maine: Zero NCAA Tournament appearances in program history

Yes, UMass is very different from the others because it's the flagship university of a state of 6.6 million people. That means that even with a bad team, it has more value to the conference with the television market that it brings.

You can't simply shut off the conversation with your arbitrary post 1998 date. That's just too convenient for you to make your point. It has been demonstrated that it is possible to build a big time program at UMass (7 bids, 3 Sweet 16's, back-to-back Elite 8's, a Final Four) and sustain it for the better part of a decade. No one has ever been able to achieve that kind of success at those other programs other than URI and while they've had their moments, just not the same kind of dominance as UMass.

[Bill Marsh]

Mmmm...pie.

If the conference is good enough, a .500 conference record is no problem. Cincinnati got in last year with a .500 conference record. UConn got in with a .500 conference record when it won the national championship in 2011.

Here are the actual records of the 5th/6th place teams from back in then day when the Big East was a 9-10 team conference:

9-team conference
1983 - 5) Syracuse (9-7), 6) Pitt (6-10)
1984 - 4) BC (8-8), 5) St. John's (8-8), 6) Pitt (6-10)
1985 - 5) Pitt (8-8), 6) BC (7-9)
1986 - 5) PC (7-9), 6) Pitt (6-10)
1987 - 4) Providence (10-6) 5) St. John's (10-6), 6), Villanova (6-10)
1988 - 5) St. John's (8-8), 6) Seton Hall (8-8)
1989 - 5) Villanova (7-9), 6) Providence (7-9)
1990 - 5) Villanova (8-8), 6) Providence (8-8)
1991 - 3) UConn (9-7), 4) Seton Hall (9-7), 5) Pitt (9-7), 6) Georgetown (8-8)

10-team conference
1992 - 5) Syracuse (10-8), 6) UConn (10-8)
1993 - 4) UConn (9-9), 5) Providence (9-9), 6) Pitt (9-9), 7) BC (9-9)
1994 - 4) Providence (10-8), 5) Villanova (10-8), 6) Georgetown (10-8)
1995 - 5) Miami (9-9), 6) PC (7-11), 7) Seton Hall (7-11), 8) St. John's (7-11)

So, we can see that in a 10 team league, the 5th place team was as likely to have a winning record as to have a .500 record and the 6th place team was more likely to have not just a .500 record but a winning record than to have a sub .500 record.

Even in a smaller 9 team conference where it was even tougher for the 5th place team to do as well, the 5th place team still had a winning record some of the time and the 6th place team still had a .500 record some of the time. In other words, there's nothing automatic about a 5th place team only being at .500 and a 6th place team having a losing record. Configurations are all over the place depending on how dominant the top teams are and how weak the bottom teams are.

The conference has nothing to do with the .500 teams. The individual team is what matters. Cincy last year went 12-1 OOC. That's why they made the tourney because they had 22 wins. If the wrong team finishes .500, they just won't have a shot.[/quote]

Steve, what does that have to do with the point I was making?

[stever20]

Steve, what does that have to do with the point I was making?

you said:
If the conference is good enough, a .500 conference record is no problem. Cincinnati got in last year with a .500 conference record. UConn got in with a .500 conference record when it won the national championship in 2011.

I said:
The conference has nothing to do with the .500 teams. The individual team is what matters. Cincy last year went 12-1 OOC. That's why they made the tourney because they had 22 wins. If the wrong team finishes .500, they just won't have a shot

I mean- last year, Cincy and Providence finished both with .500 conference records. Cincy was 12-1 OOC and made the tourney with out even having to play in a PIG. Providence went 8-4 OOC and didn't make the tourney. Same conference. The individual teams that finish at 9-9 for sure, and quite possibly 10-8 for 2-3 teams will determine if they get in, not the conference.