big picture view of Big East teams

[OutlawWales]

Ljay, some creighton fan made the last 20 yrs comment. Don't accuse me of cherry picking stats, I was just responding to a redonkulous comment.

And I don't get the comments re georgetown. What are you guys saying, that creighton is a better program than geoergetown? We're talking about georgetown here, not seton hall or rutgers.

Patrick Ewing
Alonzo
Dikembe
Iverson
Jeff Green
Otto Porter
Roy Hibbert
Jesus Freaking Shuttelsworth!!!

Let me know the next time the President of the United States of America sits courtside at a Creighton game. Thanks.

I don't think anyone has suggested Creighton is better than Georgetown. Georgetown has a fantastic pedigree. Was my favorite program growing up. I wanted to go to school there, but couldn't afford it.

MY point was simply this: People are talking about where the current teams are going in the next several years. Part of that conversation included basically saying that Creighton is more like Seton Hall or Providence than X or Butler, and pointed to the fact that although Creighton has gotten into the tourney with some regularity in the last several years, they haven't gotten to the second weekend. That was followed by touting the final four runs of programs like Georgetown. MY point is simply that if you're going to look at teams' performances in the NCAA tourney in recent years and consider that some kind of an indicator of where the programs are going in the near future, I don't see how you call Georgetown some kind of an absolute lock to be at the top of this conference for the foreseeable future. They absolutely might be -- but their NCAA tournament performance in recent years is absolutely no better than Creighton's, and arguably worse -- they've done less with more than just about anybody in recent memory in the NCAA tourney. Consistently "earning" top 2 or 3 seeds only to bow out to teams that should be seriously overmatched.

Frankly, I think looking at the past as an indicator of how X, Butler, or Creighton are going to do going forward is dangerous, anyway. None of those three has enjoyed any of the advantages of recruiting to the BIG EAST before. What you're doing is comparing what those teams were able to do with the disadvantages of location, conference, etc., with what longtime BIG EAST teams have done with all of the advantages that come with the conference. That's apples and oranges. And even if you do that, to somehow denigrate Creighton's remarkable consistency on the basis of things that are equally true of most of the "big boys" of the conference in the last several years is pretty weak.

Yay, Georgetown had Otto Porter last year! Yay the President has come to their games! That still has not translated to overcoming far lesser teams in the NCAA tourney for the last six years. Why is a Final Four run seven years ago, followed by ridiculously consistent underperformance for six years, somehow translate to a better indicator of success in the next several years that consistency that has resulted in similar post season exits for the last several years? That's my only point.

[hoyahooligan]

Yes Georgetown has choked in the post season, but that doesn't mean they haven't been successful. They earned all those high seeds with their play during the regular season. No one is ignoring the short comings Georgetown has had of late, but you don't get to erase the two years prior for your convenience. Our sweet 16 and Final 4 in 06 and 07 are perfectly valid and something Creighton has never done.

And it also ignores our 3 BE conference titles during that time which is much more impressive than anything Creighton has ever done.

It's also very early in the BE season to be saying who is and is not struggling in the BE. Creighton has played arguably the 3 of the 4 worst BE teams in conference so far. Georgetown has played weak competition to start the BE too. Who knows where the teams will be in February.

[OutlawWales]

Yes Georgetown has choked in the post season, but that doesn't mean they haven't been successful. They earned all those high seeds with their play during the regular season. No one is ignoring the short comings Georgetown has had of late, but you don't get to erase the two years prior for your convenience. Our sweet 16 and Final 4 in 06 and 07 are perfectly valid and something Creighton has never done.

And it also ignores our 3 BE conference titles during that time which is much more impressive than anything Creighton has ever done.

It's also very early in the BE season to be saying who is and is not struggling in the BE. Creighton has played arguably the 3 of the 4 worst BE teams in conference so far. Georgetown has played weak competition to start the BE too. Who knows where the teams will be in February.

I give up on this one. I haven't said anything about anyone struggling this year. I certainly haven't suggested Georgetown is. And I recognize that we've played three of the worst teams in the conference so far. This Sunday's game will be a huge test against X. And as a fan, I'm equally excited and equally nervous about every single game this year because every opponent is of a higher caliber than we've faced night in and night out in the past. Absolutely no argument at all from me on that one.

For the last time, my point is solely related to those dismissing Creighton's post season appearances because of their inability to get out of the first weekend -- in that regard, Georgetown's recent performances don't exactly suggest that they are all set to dominate for years to come. The postseason performances for the last several years have been pretty comparable -- except that Georgetown has EARNED and RECEIVED really high seeds and choked; Creighton has had difficult matchups they were expected to lose. And I DO get to ignore what happened seven years ago, if I want to. There aren't any "rules" to a discussion like this -- the point I'm making is solely related to recent tourney performance and you have to draw the line somewhere. I suppose some teams would draw that line back 10 or 15 or 20 years ago when they last had a great run to the Final Four or whatever. It's entirely debatable what "recent" means in that regard -- you want to include a Final Four run seven years ago, that's fine -- doesn't change the nature of the performances the last six years one bit. And if you want to ask me how Georgetown is likely to perform in the tourney this year or next year, I think most people are going to point to the last six years before they say, "Oh but SEVEN years ago they did real good."

Your final sentence pretty much sums up exactly my point -- nobody knows where these teams will be in February, let alone in the next few years. And I don't think that what these teams have done in the past, when several of them were in an entirely different conference and paradigm, are really worth much in that discussion. My sense of reading the posts in this thread has pretty much been that the consensus seems to be that Creighton has never done anything of any note, that every kind of past success or consistency is easily dismissed because it wasn't already done in the BIG EAST, and Creighton was really just invited to the conference to join Seton Hall and DePaul as an easy doormat for all of you elite programs to beat up on. That sentiment rubs me the wrong way, and I apologize if I'm come across as brash at all -- I'm pretty proud of my team's history that seems to be completely disregarded by others in this thread who can easily just dismiss whatever shortcomings there are in their own team's history.

I enjoy a thoughtful debate backed up by meaningful points, rather than dismissive insults and whatnot. In that regard, my hat's off to everyone who disagrees with me -- I think everyone is backing his/her point up and we just disagree. And that's allowed.

[stever20]

I think my thought on the difference between Georgetown and Creighton...

Georgetown hasn't had anywhere near the best player they ever have had, while Creighton has. Yet even now, Georgetown has done pretty close to the same results-if not better in some regards(actual NCAA spots). Yes Georgetown had better seeds, but you can't assume if Creighton had been in a tougher conference they would have performed any better- we just don't know. Now, next year, Georgetown will still have close to the same type of team. But, for Creighton, they're going to be very different.

I think for Creighton there are 2 huge keys going forward-
1- the performance the rest of this year. A sweet 16 or stronger would be HUGE for them establishing them as a major factor.
2- the 2015 recruiting class.

Of course, if 1 happens, 2 would become so much easier.

[whiteandblue77]

This thread is getting REALLLY Supid... in 20 years this is how it's going to look to us:

[MUBoxer]

Can I just say that past is a pretty good indicator of the future in my opinion. I mean this is college basketball, there's a reason that so few teams break through in this sport and you have so many of the same teams spouting their "tradition of excellence" chances are Creighton won't drop off like Depaul, will they suddenly be the cream of the crop? Probably not. If past is any indication they'll have runs of success under people like Korver and McDermott but will also drop off a couple years.

Regaurding GTown vs Creighton the bottom line is give a recruit a blank slate of two programs in the same conference one has 29 ncaa appearances, 11 sweet 16s, 9 elite 8s, 5 final fours, 3 runner ups, and a title while the other has 18 Ncaa appearances and 3 sweet 16s. The recruit will almost always choose the former. This is why the best programs in CBB stay as the best programs in CBB. Hopefully this helps show why the past has an indication for the future.

[Jet915]

Why are we being compared to Georgetown? There is no comparison, Georgetown is the superior program overall. We might have better fan support right now and better facilities, but overall, Georgetown is superior to any program in the Big East IMO.

[aughnanure]

Why are we being compared to Georgetown? There is no comparison, Georgetown is the superior program overall. We might have better city support right now and better facilities, but overall, Georgetown is superior to any program in the Big East IMO.

FIFY. I'm envious of the support Omaha gives Creighton when comparing how Milwaukee is treated. Georgetown gets hurt in D.C. because it's such a transient city. Alums come from all over and most don't stay in the city. I long for the days when Marquette had a pathetic Wisconsin program in their back yard (literally, they didn't make a tourney appearance from 1947-1994), just like you have Nebraska. We've become this hated blacksheep even in our own city.

[Friarfan2]

I didn't suggest that creighton was more like seton hall. I put them in the top group. Stever suggest maybe they were in thje second group. And suddenly the blue jays started going nutty saying we compared them to seton hall, which nobody did. And then someone said that creighton had been the most consistent team over the past 20 yrs, and that was shot down as real big east fans don't care about the cib or cti tournament or whatever.

[Jays26]

I didn't suggest that creighton was more like seton hall. I put them in the top group. Stever suggest maybe they were in thje second group. And suddenly the blue jays started going nutty saying we compared them to seton hall, which nobody did. And then someone said that creighton had been the most consistent team over the past 20 yrs, and that was shot down as real big east fans don't care about the cib or cti tournament or whatever.

That's rich! FF2 calling somebody "nutty"

And by the way, It's BlueJays!