The Gap

[Edrick]

Below is a listing of the non-BCS conferences have how they have fared in the NCAA tournament since the 2002-03 season (wins). This includes victories only by current conference members and doesn't include wins registered in the play-in game.

In short, the Big East has a Grand Canyon between it and the field. There is 0 motivation to expand past 10, unless the expansion teams contribute to the Gap.

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1, Big East (69)
Butler 16, Xavier 14, Marquette 13, Villanova 12, Georgetown 10, Creighton 2, DePaul, Seton Hall

2, Atlantic 10 (23)
VCU 7, George Mason 5, St. Joseph's 3, LaSalle 2, Richmond 2, St. Louis 2, Dayton, George Washington

3, West Coast (17)
Gonzaga 11, BYU 3, St. Mary's 2, San Diego

4 (tie), Missouri Valley (13)
Wichita State 6, Southern Illinois 3, Bradley 2, Northern Iowa 2

4 (tie), Mountain West (13)
Nevada 4, San Diego State 3, UNLV 3, New Mexico 2, Colorado State

6, C-USA (5)
UAB 3, Old Dominion, Tulsa

7 (tie), Horizon (4)
Milwaukee 3, Cleveland State

7 (tie), Mid-American (4)
Ohio 3, Central Michigan

9 (tie), Ivy League (3)
Cornell 2, Harvard

9 (tie), Metro Atlantic (3)
Siena 2, Manhattan

9 (tie), Ohio Valley (3)
Murray State 2, Morehead State

9 (tie), Patriot (3)
Bucknell 2, Lehigh

9 (tie), Southern (3)
Davidson 3

9 (tie), Sun Belt (3)
Western Kentucky 3

15 (tie), Atlantic Sun (2)
Florida Gulf Coast 2

15 (tie), Big West (2)
Pacific 2

17 (tie), America East (1)
Vermont

17 (tie), Big Sky (1)
Montana

17 (tie), Big South (1)
Winthrop

17 (tie), MEAC (1)
Norfolk State

17 (tie), Southland (1)
Northwestern State

[cm5yz6]

Below is a listing of the non-BCS conferences have how they have fared in the NCAA tournament since the 2002-03 season (wins). This includes victories only by current conference members and doesn't include wins registered in the play-in game.

In short, the Big East has a Grand Canyon between it and the field. There is 0 motivation to expand past 10, unless the expansion teams contribute to the Gap.

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1, Big East (69)
Butler 16, Xavier 14, Marquette 13, Villanova 12, Georgetown 10, Creighton 2, DePaul, Seton Hall

2, Atlantic 10 (23)
VCU 7, George Mason 5, St. Joseph's 3, LaSalle 2, Richmond 2, St. Louis 2, Dayton, George Washington

3, West Coast (17)
Gonzaga 11, BYU 3, St. Mary's 2, San Diego

4 (tie), Missouri Valley (13)
Wichita State 6, Southern Illinois 3, Bradley 2, Northern Iowa 2

4 (tie), Mountain West (13)
Nevada 4, San Diego State 3, UNLV 3, New Mexico 2, Colorado State

6, C-USA (5)
UAB 3, Old Dominion, Tulsa

7 (tie), Horizon (4)
Milwaukee 3, Cleveland State

7 (tie), Mid-American (4)
Ohio 3, Central Michigan

9 (tie), Ivy League (3)
Cornell 2, Harvard

9 (tie), Metro Atlantic (3)
Siena 2, Manhattan

9 (tie), Ohio Valley (3)
Murray State 2, Morehead State

9 (tie), Patriot (3)
Bucknell 2, Lehigh

9 (tie), Southern (3)
Davidson 3

9 (tie), Sun Belt (3)
Western Kentucky 3

15 (tie), Atlantic Sun (2)
Florida Gulf Coast 2

15 (tie), Big West (2)
Pacific 2

17 (tie), America East (1)
Vermont

17 (tie), Big Sky (1)
Montana

17 (tie), Big South (1)
Winthrop

17 (tie), MEAC (1)
Norfolk State

17 (tie), Southland (1)
Northwestern State

Any stats on the American Athletic? they are not BCS (well actually no one is but from what i am guessing you are categorizing, the Big 5, The American is not one of them and is a peer to these conferences) I would bet Memphis, Temple, UConn, and Cinci along with one or two from a few of the other members may close that gap a little.

Not to mention this is a crazy way to say that if you don't expand the gap you shouldn't be considered, George Mason would significantly expand the gap but I'm pretty sure no one in the Big East want them. But mostly, I would like the American to be added to this comparison, would be interesting.

[yorost]

The AA would be around 40. Something like 20 for UConn, close to 10 for Memphis (vacated their biggest run), and no more than 10 for everyone else combined. Cincy and Temple have made it, but they haven't had a lot of success in the last 10 years once there.

[ChicagoX]

I wish people would get over the fact that VCU is a large, state school and let them join with St. Louis. Both schools seem to be strongly committed, basketball-only schools with new, modern facilities that are well-positioned for future success. VCU would be a significant upgrade compared to Richmond or Dayton, and it's not even close.

If the Big East truly wants to be the best collection of basketball-only schools, then VCU and SLU are the way to go. ND is never going to join and there aren't any other options that would truly improve the conference besides Gonzaga, and the geography just doesn't work for them. The eastern schools could use a strong mate to go along with Georgetown and Villanova, because the three most successful schools in terms of recent NCAA success all reside in the western half of the conference. VCU fits the bill perfectly if the objective is to bring in another east-coast team that will actually improve the conference.

[smitty]

By your logic Depaul and Seton Hall should be kicked out for having zero wins and Dayton, the most historic and well supported, largest Catholic research universtity list added

[BillEsq]

This may be the most "different" chart I have ever seen in my life. Why did you use 2003 as the start date? I'm not really sure what it shows. If anything this chart shows that the BE needs to take A-10 teams, as BE taking any A-10 team would increase the GAP therefore should be included. At this rate using this "GAP" chart the BE should not only expand to 12 teams but should move to 14-16. This would increase the gap between it and the A-10.

So... if your argument is that no school should be allowed in unless it increases the gap from the BE and the A-10 your chart seems to argue that we should continue to raid the A-10 into oblivion, and gauging from your posts I don't think its what you intended in making the chart.

I personally advocate only taking teams that fit league mold and help them compete with the 5-6 conferences that you left out your chart. I hope the BE would want to challenge the BCS conferences and not just want to be better than the A-10.

I think everyone on here knows i think the BE should move to 12 teams, and that I want SLU to be added. However, I would hope Slu is being added because it has some value to the league rather than it would be increasing the gap between the league and the A-10.

Also if you are going to arbitrarily pick years to start a chart i recommend 2005/2006 (one and done rule starts) if that doesn't you could pick a year where the NCAA tournament expanded. But i am unaware of any major rule change in 2003 that would make that year a year to pick. Heck units only go back 6 years.

[yorost]

It's not true that attacking the A-10 is best for increasing the gap. Taking Wichita St. would increase the gap more than taking St. Louis would. ...but that's beside your point. It is an arbitrary time period, but it would be somewhat interesting to see a yearly cumulative comparison back a few decades. It's a lot of work for someone to compile all the data for an idea and present it, much less to a message board. It's a measure tied to success, so it's reasonably of interest. If the period is chosen specifically to skew the results, then it is bad, but otherwise it's a nice talking point.

[Edrick]

1. What part of ten years in confusing to you? It was just updated for the current results of a tournament that hasn't completed.
2. The only A10 team that is mildly attractive is VCU and they aren't going to be added for all the reasons everyone understands.
3. There's no threshold of time that SLU looks worthy

[BillEsq]

1. What part of ten years in confusing to you? It was just updated for the current results of a tournament that hasn't completed.
2. The only A10 team that is mildly attractive is VCU and they aren't going to be added for all the reasons everyone understands.
3. There's no threshold of time that SLU looks worthy

Bash away... All i'm saying is that your chart argues that the conference should expand past 12. if the goal is to increase the gap you take the best of the rest.

However to make it point counter point.
1. 2002-2003 to current season is 11 seasons not ten... so i'm not confused.
2. Sure... VCU isn't being added. But if your goal is to expand the gap between the A-10 and the BE then they become attractive.
3. If your goal is to expand the gap between the A-10 and the BE SLU is currently worthy. As adding them would both increase BE wins and lower A019 wins. They also currently have as many wins in the 11 year time period as new addition Creighton. The also have more wins and would add more to the conference according to your "gap chart" than Depaul, Seton Hall, St. Johns, and Providence. (once again this is according to your chart) So to say they do not look worthy now would be the same as to say that Creighton is not worthy. -rest assured BlueJay fans i think your worthy

[BillEsq]

It's not true that attacking the A-10 is best for increasing the gap. Taking Wichita St. would increase the gap more than taking St. Louis would. ...but that's beside your point. It is an arbitrary time period, but it would be somewhat interesting to see a yearly cumulative comparison back a few decades. It's a lot of work for someone to compile all the data for an idea and present it, much less to a message board. It's a measure tied to success, so it's reasonably of interest. If the period is chosen specifically to skew the results, then it is bad, but otherwise it's a nice talking point.

Your right it does take a lot of work and i probably shouldn't have been so harsh on it. I'm just pointing out the fact that the gap chart argues that you should add more teams be they VCU, SLU, Wichita (feel free to add and subtract as you want) I only mentioned Slu as a disclaimer not to say in this circumstance that they are or are not better than any others.

The problem with taking this over the decades is that you hit the time periods where there were fewer teams being added into the tournament. So 1 fewer wins to be had and 2 fewer chances to have wins. You will start to have to asterix everything. While it is interesting and good for thought i just think a comparison of the BE should be made with the ACC, B10, B12, SEC, PAC, and AAC rather than those further down. The A-10, Mountain, and WCC could be included as well but no real reason to go much further down.